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All new features of WD17, what do you think ?

Startbeitrag von Hristo Dimitrov am 03.10.2011 11:03

Hello guys,

Today PCSoft announced WD17 and its new 917 features. Please tell me what do you think about them. How much of them will you use.

For me only 10 are really new ....

I hope most of the bugs with HFSQL are solved, especially memory usage on Windows OS's.



Best regards,
Hristo Dimitrov

Antworten:

I just upgrade to WD16 , 3 months ago :angry: and found a lot of bugs.

is this the way pcsoft do business that tell customer that if you want bugs fixed you must pay again.




von ccc - am 03.10.2011 11:25
There is no official bug tracking system deployed by PCSoft. There is no information for any bug!!!!!!

von Hristo Dimitrov - am 03.10.2011 11:32
Hi,

at the first look: The new anchoring in WB17 is great and the Ribbons in WD17 also ...



von Michael Drechsel - am 03.10.2011 12:51
Loving that multi-touch is available for WM. Glad I skipped a
version and waited ... Hopefully we'll see an English version
come Jan 2012.

Georgio

von Georgio - am 03.10.2011 14:59
Wel I saw that with version 17 of mobile you can make apps for the I phone . That's great news.

I am not good at french and all the new features are in pdf witch i cannot translate but development for the I phone is great news

Allard

von Allard - am 03.10.2011 17:08
PC Soft need implement a big manual in PDF with all errors and support succesful to developer, the Help online is good but is very important got a system manual of errors.

When i was programming in COBOL (Common Oriented Bussines Language) gotta a huge manual where exist each error and each solution.

For example if you got an error as ERR1090990939209030930920

You was go to the page xxxx and see ....


ERR109090909090909: Is an error when u introduce a alpha character on a number field.

Solution: Use alpha characters.

Add of userd: Use alfa characters with variable witdh , work better.


Thats type of book was permit fix the error and take the system on the road.

And forget the horrible sensation of cannot solve a present trouble, is hard to read but its easy to solve.


Programmers Check all mails supports ( Solved better) and do a BOOK Forum with all to
a better programation i think that we obtain benefit and PC SOFT got better sells each year with new versions.


Regars

Manfred :spos:










von Manfred - am 03.10.2011 17:14
I gave the pdf a go . And altough my french isnot good I saw some cool new features

Webdev will support css and you can edit html. Cool you can grab a css design from the internet and use it in your site.
In windev it is possible to make office 2007 like menu's witch is great. You can add a calculator to a numeric field. This is a great feature.
Mobile can create for iphone

Just a view highlights I think 17 is a manger upgrade


Allard

von Allard - am 03.10.2011 17:49
If it is faster and takes less CPU resources than WD14, then i will buy it, else i shall skip it.

...


von Patrice Terrier - am 03.10.2011 18:32
What to think about news and nothing.
17 is just another number . 999,917,555,...hm I think this is not The Way.
OK if all bugs or mostly are resolved and new options are inserted, but new options without resolving older problems are just many new problems,...
If you with WX16 have 999 new problems, now you will have another 917.
But it is MONOPOL :hot:

von ICI - am 03.10.2011 18:49
Doesn't address my bug / feature requests that I've submitted to PC Soft and via this excellent WinDev forum, to include:

* Calendar control that 100% emulates the Windows control for date drilldown
* Propercase For Data Entry Fields
* More intelligent data picklists that allow an enduser to add/edit/delete lookup entries
* Probably doesn't fix incremental search that changes a Table control's sort order as soon as the enduser presses A-Z / 0-9 on the keyboard (VERY irritating!)
* New component to add a QBE Wizard to limit data displayed in a Table control; enduser can save / edit queries
* Probably doesn't fix language errors for tooltips displayed in print preview screen (some in French, some in English)
* Probably doesn't address slow / buggy Reports and Queries module that others have complained about on this forum
* Not all "snapshot" reports passed from a highlighted record that is displayed in a Table control is going to use a "table" type of report - more often than not, that report needs to be a freeform report (e.g. an invoice)...

There are other annoyances, but I won't list them here because it is probably due to my being new to WinDev and inexperienced

I have no need to smart phone, cloud-based computing, or non-Windows environment features.. I need functionality that is value added to either add data to a database or help an average enduser get their inputted information back out of the database in a Windows environment. WinDev 16 didn't meet my expectation - I got excited with the WinDev 17 announcement (knowing it would be 6+ months before an English version is released), but now it looks like I will be shelving WinDev and returning back to Clarion :(

von Scott - am 04.10.2011 05:43
Must make a jump from 15 to 17 then.

Good stuff :hot:

von King - am 04.10.2011 07:23
Quote
Scott
Doesn't address my bug / feature requests that I've submitted to PC Soft and via this excellent WinDev forum, to include:

* Calendar control that 100% emulates the Windows control for date drilldown
* Propercase For Data Entry Fields
* More intelligent data picklists that allow an enduser to add/edit/delete lookup entries
* Probably doesn't fix incremental search that changes a Table control's sort order as soon as the enduser presses A-Z / 0-9 on the keyboard (VERY irritating!)
* New component to add a QBE Wizard to limit data displayed in a Table control; enduser can save / edit queries
* Probably doesn't fix language errors for tooltips displayed in print preview screen (some in French, some in English)
* Probably doesn't address slow / buggy Reports and Queries module that others have complained about on this forum
* Not all "snapshot" reports passed from a highlighted record that is displayed in a Table control is going to use a "table" type of report - more often than not, that report needs to be a freeform report (e.g. an invoice)...

There are other annoyances, but I won't list them here because it is probably due to my being new to WinDev and inexperienced

I have no need to smart phone, cloud-based computing, or non-Windows environment features.. I need functionality that is value added to either add data to a database or help an average enduser get their inputted information back out of the database in a Windows environment. WinDev 16 didn't meet my expectation - I got excited with the WinDev 17 announcement (knowing it would be 6+ months before an English version is released), but now it looks like I will be shelving WinDev and returning back to Clarion :(


Hi, your list ..

- I can't see a problem in using the Windows calendar control (or any other). WinDev contains all commands to enable you to call it, initialize it and to put the return value into an edit control or whatever. I even remember to have seen an example here on the forum.

- 'Proper case' or 'Title case' are special to English. I'd suggest to roll your own global procedure and call it from any input where you need such a supporting routine.

- add / delete / edit a pick list. Again, if 'assisted input' doesn't suit you, there's a combo with edit (and quite some code) and again, a floating window with a Table on it can be made for picking / adding / deleting / changing.

- you can catch the input to the Table with an event - and kill the input thereby eliminating the automatic opening of the edit control for searching a column. Sorting by different colums is not that easy, I'd suggest to use hidden columns with pre-set values and offer custom sorting by buttons. Usually there are not that many combinations of columns that make sense sorting them in combination.

- QBE. Did you know, that searching of colums can result in a limited set of records if only you would use TableInputSearch(..) using the available filter variables? http://doc.windev.com/en-US/?3074024&name=tableinputsearch-function The only inconvenience is that 'initial value' doesn't work. We hope to have it working with v17.

- imho, a fix has been suggested for the tooltip language. If not, PC Soft should fix that as well.

..

regards, Guenter


von Jimbo - am 04.10.2011 10:32
Hi Guenter,

As always, I appreciate your inputs and the assistance you provide to everyone on this forum :)

My comments to your comments :

- I searched high & low for examples of calling the Windows calendar component - didn't find it. My concern with calling the Windows API is different versions of Windows (we use Windows XP thru Windows 7) might produce a runtime error or erratic results in the return value.

- Proper / Title Case might be unique to the English language, but that feature for data entry controls has been part of the Clarion (and other) programming language for years. A huge amount of software is written for the English market. The problem with creating a subroutine to convert the entry field contents is trying to have it update the contents in realtime as the enduser is typing in the field - with Clarion, as soon as the enduser types in a letter, the entry field checks if the previous character is a space character - if TRUE, the letter is converted into UPPERCASE, and everything else is lowercase until the space character is detected. However, the enduser can force UPPERCASE in the entry field if needed - would be MUCH better / easier if PC Soft included that functionality either in the data dictionary / analysis or the "7 tabs screen"

- Data entry picklists are something I've harped about for years on this great forum - I was able to use WinDev to create a data lookup that conducts autosearching to autofill an entry field, but the "hook" didn't exist for me to add right-click menu options to ADD / EDIT / DELETE contents of the lookup table. If you create a separate procedure to contain a table control (and it's add/edit/delete buttons) you can't have it autofill the entry field. In all fairness, Clarion doesn't provide autofill functionality either; however, it's 3rd party has (PDlookup), and once you (and your endusers) use that type of data lookup "tool' in a program they are spoiled for life. Data entry is MUCH faster with the autofill feature, and the ability to change lookup data "on the fly" is a HUGE benefit - and WinDev doesn't have that capability, and it's 3rd party marketplace is nonexistent to fill that gap - which leaves me stuck between the proverbial rock and a hard place.

- Should I really have to dissect how a Table Control works in WinDev to intercept keyboard activity to bypass the default incremental search action to save the column sorting? Or should PC Soft fix how incremental search works in it's table control - save the state of the table control's sort order BEFORE it updates the column header entry field that stores/displays the keyboard characters, and then restore the table control sort order after the enduser finishes the incremental search? My Clarion applications have NEVER had that problem out of the box, and the Clarion 3rd party listbox templates don't have this problem either. I got EXTREMELY frustrated when I would use the keyboard to quickly "jump" to a desired Table Control entry, and when I would resume scrolling up/down the Table Control I would learn that my multi-column sort order was all screwed up!!! That is a showstopper for me...

- The filter capability within a Table Control is useful IF the filter is extremely simple and the enduser only wants to use that filter one time. What if the enduser wants to create a filter condition based on the values of 2 or more fields AND after ensuring their filter worked reliably, SAVE that filter for reuse instead of recreating the wheel everytime they use the application? For my "test" application, I created a droplist of 9 or so "common" filters that were hardcoded within a CASE statement; however, I can't possibly think of every possible filter condition that will be needed in the future, and it would be unfair to demand $$$ of a client to add another filter condition.

Hope the above helps. I further hope that PC Soft periodically reviews this forum's posts to see what their customers need... because of the shortcomings above, I can't use WinDev 16; and apparently I can't use WinDev 17 either. It seems to me that PC Soft, in my opinion, is trying to attack every computing platform (e.g. smartphones; cloud computing) with basic functionality and then advertise that capability to quickly garner sales - which is fine from a business model perspective, as they need $$$ to stay alive, but it is difficult for programmers to create software that meets our / our customer's needs when bugs / lack of features / lack of 3rd party marketplace quickly appear and we can't meet client expectations.

I'm a hobbyist programmer that used to work in the IT field - I have a fulltime job doing something non-IT related. The amount of time I have to invest in learning a language is not nearly as much as I would like. I certainly don't have the time to learn by trial and error where all of the WinDev bugs exist and how to create innovative / complex workarounds. The recommendations I've made, via this forum, for several years now have repeatedly gone unanswered by PC Soft, which is very frustrating. Hopefully PC Soft (or a motivated WinDev expert that can create, and then sell, a SuperControl) can fill the gaps so programmers can move over from other programming languages to WinDev, find 100% of the tools they need to create not only an application comparable to what they created with a different tool, but then benefit from the integration that the WinDev environment offers.

von Scott - am 04.10.2011 14:41
What I already would like to see:

1) Allow queries over multiple tables to be updateable on the primary table of that query. This could easily be implemented for queries designed in the query editor where the developer would indicate the primary table in the query. Any execution with the hModifyable flag would update modifications to that table.

2) Allow the developer to translate all AAF menu's, popups, context windows, etc without having to use WDINT. In Webdev this can be done in the .js resource files for the languages of the project. For some items (calendar, days, months, ....) this can already be done in Windev but for most automatic features not however. In my case I have Dutch software with English or French (depending on the integrated runtime) popups all over the place.

Cheers,

P.


von Peter H. - am 04.10.2011 14:53
Hi Guenter,

As always, I appreciate your inputs and the assistance you provide to everyone on this forum :)

- I searched high & low for examples of calling the Windows calendar component - didn't find it. My concern with calling the Windows API is different versions of Windows (we use Windows XP thru Windows 7) might produce a runtime error or erratic results.

- Proper / Title Case might be unique to the English language, but that feature for data entry controls has been part of the Clarion (and other) programming language for years. A huge amount of software is written for the English market. The problem with creating a subroutine to convert the entry field contents is trying to have it update the contents in realtime as the enduser is typing in the field - with Clarion, as soon as the enduser types in a letter, the entry field checks if the previous character is a space character - if TRUE, the letter is converted into UPPERCASE, and everything else is lowercase until the space character is detected. However, the enduser can force UPPERCASE in the entry field if needed - would be MUCH better / easier if PC Soft included that functionality either in the data dictionary / analysis or the "7 tabs screen"

- Data entry picklists are something I've harped about for years on this great forum - I was able to use WinDev to create a data lookup that conducts autosearching to autofill an entry field, but the "hook" didn't exist for me to add right-click menu options to ADD / EDIT / DELETE contents of the lookup table. If you create a separate procedure to contain a table control (and it's add/edit/delete buttons) you can't have it autofill the entry field. In all fairness, Clarion doesn't provide autofill functionality either; however, it's 3rd party has (PDlookup), and once you (and your endusers) use that type of data lookup "tool' in a program they are spoiled for life. Data entry is MUCH faster with the autofill feature, and the ability to change lookup data "on the fly" is a HUGE benefit - and WinDev doesn't have that capability, and it's 3rd party marketplace is nonexistent to fill that gap - which leaves me stuck between the proverbial rock and a hard place.

- Should I really have to dissect how a Table Control works in WinDev to intercept keyboard activity to bypass the default incremental search action to save the column sorting? Or should PC Soft fix how incremental search works in it's table control - save the state of the table control's sort order BEFORE it updates the column header entry field that stores/displays the keyboard characters, and then restore the table control sort order after the enduser finishes the incremental search? My Clarion applications have NEVER had that problem out of the box, and the Clarion 3rd party listbox templates don't have this problem either. I got EXTREMELY frustrated when I would use the keyboard to quickly "jump" to a desired Table Control entry, and when I would resume scrolling up/down the Table Control I would learn that my multi-column sort order was all screwed up!!! That is a showstopper for me...

- The filter capability within a Table Control is useful IF the filter is extremely simple and the enduser only wants to use that filter one time. What if the enduser wants to create a filter condition based on the values of 2 or more fields AND after ensuring their filter worked reliably, SAVE that filter for reuse instead of recreating the wheel everytime they use the application? For my "test" application, I created a droplist of 9 or so "common" filters that were hardcoded within a CASE statement; however, I can't possibly think of every possible filter condition that will be needed in the future, and it would be unfair to demand $$$ of a client to add another filter condition.

von Scott - am 04.10.2011 14:59
Hi Guenter,

As always, I appreciate your inputs and the assistance you provide to everyone on this forum :)

- I searched high & low for examples of calling the Windows calendar component - didn't find it. My concern with calling the Windows API is different versions of Windows (we use Windows XP thru Windows 7) might produce a runtime error or erratic results in the return value.

- Proper / Title Case: The problem with creating a subroutine to convert the entry field contents to Proper Case is trying to have it update the contents in realtime as the enduser is typing in the field - with Clarion, as soon as the enduser types in a letter, the entry field checks if the previous character is a space character - if TRUE, the letter is converted into UPPERCASE, and everything else is lowercase until the space character is detected. However, the enduser can force UPPERCASE in the entry field if needed - would be MUCH better / easier if PC Soft included that functionality either in the data dictionary / analysis or the "7 tabs screen"

- I was able to use WinDev to create a data lookup that conducts autosearching to autofill an entry field, but the "hook" didn't exist for me to add right-click menu options to ADD / EDIT / DELETE contents of the lookup table. If you create a separate procedure to contain a table control (and it's add/edit/delete buttons) you can't have it autofill the entry field. Data entry is MUCH faster with the autofill feature, and the ability to change lookup data "on the fly" is a HUGE benefit

- Should I really have to dissect how a Table Control works in WinDev to intercept keyboard activity to bypass the default incremental search action to save the column sorting? Or should PC Soft fix how incremental search works in it's table control - save the state of the table control's sort order BEFORE it updates the column header entry field that stores/displays the keyboard characters, and then restore the table control sort order after the enduser finishes the incremental search? I got EXTREMELY frustrated when I would use the keyboard to quickly "jump" to a desired Table Control entry, and when I would resume scrolling up/down the Table Control I would learn that my multi-column sort order was all screwed up!!! That is a showstopper for me...

- The filter capability within a Table Control is useful IF the filter is extremely simple and the enduser only wants to use that filter one time. What if the enduser wants to create a filter condition based on the values of 2 or more fields AND after ensuring their filter worked reliably, SAVE that filter for reuse instead of recreating the wheel everytime they use the application?

von Scott - am 04.10.2011 15:03
Does anyone else have problems with the forum taking 10-30 minutes to upload your post?

I didn't mean to "spam" the board with my reply - I wrote up my reply, previewed it, and then sent it - waited 15 minutes and refreshed the forum page (http://forum.mysnip.de/list.php?27131) and my uploaded post wasn't there.. so I would edit the post to make it shorter, thinking it was too big to be posted - preview / post it again, wait another 10-15 minutes and my post still wasn't there... so the last time (0503PM) I REALLY chopped down my post and sent it... and now everything shows up...

:(

von Scott - am 04.10.2011 15:59
several problem that I really hope that pcsoft able to make it work 100% (without any limitation)

1. the analysis .I hope it can import and Synchronizing external database 100% correct .
2. the query . when using external database, i sick of getting some sql function cannot work while querycorrection is ON .
3. some database functions do not work correctly when using external database but work fine when you using HF.

because of the limitation of query , I endup write a lot ugly code.











von CCC - am 04.10.2011 16:13
Hi Scott,

The Windows Calendar integration out of the common control win32 library through API's came from me. I posted it on the old forum and created it back with V8 or V9 I guess and it worked fine in all sorts of calendar formats (1 month up to a whole year with 12 month calendars on it). I don't use it anymore and I need to search for that resource somewhere on my old backup drives. I'm sure I sent it to quiet some people like Art Bonds in that era who requested for it. Maybe they still have it somewhere...

Cheers,

Peter

von Peter H. - am 04.10.2011 19:31
And waht about Windows 8 ? Has somebody mentioned that ?

James

von James Smiths - am 04.10.2011 22:53
Hi,
it looks like this will be in Wx18.
And this is normal, since Windows 8 has not been released yet.
I was skeptical about support for Windows 8 on ARM processors, but after seeing that they are now making NATIVE iPhone/iPad apps, I am "quite sure" that PCSoft will deliver Windows8/ARM apps quite soon.

As I said in another post:
I don't know how they do it ....

Steven Sitas

von Steven Sitas - am 05.10.2011 06:52

There are new 'ribbon controls' in WD17, maybe this is a Win8 requirement?

von Jimbo - am 05.10.2011 06:54
Guenter,

No it is not a requirement for Windows 8. I already tested the developer version and the frontend is designed for Tablets and multi touch screens. The backend is Windows 7++ (don't know what the plusses are or what the minuses are. The Front end is web based (HTML5), so I am thinking there comes a moment where WD, WD Mobile and WB needs toa be integrated as 1.


von Carlo Hermus - am 05.10.2011 11:39
Peter,

If you could "dig up" the calendar control and see if it works with Windows 7 that would be very much appreciated.

As an FYI to PC Soft, my government agency (roughly 5000 employees) is still using Windows XP and Office 2003, as are a lot of companies in the U.S. The rush to accommodate Windows 8 is understandable - my concern is that reality is that a majority of companies are still using older operating systems and software for a couple of reasons:

1. Training cost of employees
2. Familiarity of employees with software
3. Upgrade cost of the software applications is prohibitive
4. Human nature (i.e. stay with something that is familiar / comfortable)
5. Hardware upgrade requirements that can handle more resource-hungry OS / apps

Our agency is just now trying to push our environment towards Windows 7 / Office 2010 over the next six months. Once that happens, that will become the standard for the next five (or more) years. Touchscreens, vocal interfaces, cloud computing, Windows 8 styled apps - isn't happening... and I would project that for nearly every U.S. government agency, all of these new computing ideas isn't happening either - there is no budget to accommodate this type of initiative in a recession. There is movement afoot to migrate email to a centralized repository (ran by DISA; the U.S. Army has already migrated a portion of their accounts, which has been written about online for several months in computer magazines), but by-and-large we will remain in a Windows 7 environment for another 5/6/7/10 years - which is why adding features that aren't tablet/pushscreen/smartphone related are so important to me.

von scott - am 05.10.2011 14:58
Guenter

I have just come across this post and I must take issue with you on one important point: Proper/Title case.

You suggest this is 'special' to English. How so?

How do you write your name? When you write your name, fill in forms, do you write 'günter predl' or do you write 'Günter Predl'? If you use the latter form, as I think most people would do in most countries, then you are using proper case or title case (both names are used).

Going political for a moment: what about your president?

heinz fischer is the österreichischer bundespräsident; his offices are located in the leopoldine wing of the hofburg imperial palace in vienna, austria.

If you don't like lower case, try upper case:

HEINZ FISCHER IS THE ÖSTERREICHISCHER BUNDESPRÄSIDENT; HIS OFFICES ARE LOCATED IN THE LEOPOLDINE WING OF THE HOFBURG IMPERIAL PALACE IN VIENNA, AUSTRIA.

Or would you prefer to use proper/title case and see it written like this.

Heinz Fischer is the Österreichischer Bundespräsident; his offices are located in the Leopoldine Wing of the Hofburg Imperial Palace in Vienna, Austria.

Do you still say proper/title case is special to English?

Why do we need it? For standardising data entry, particularly of names, addresses, places, positions, etc. The user types in a name, first name and last name, perhaps also a middle name or initial. In our database we want this in a standard form for use in reports, lists, letters, whatever. Long gone are the days when printing names in all uppercase letters was acceptable. But without a title case mask you either have to accept what the user inputs, hoping that they've remembered to press the shift key at the right time. Or you manipulate the input by programming to produce the desired result. Most programmers put the onus right back on the user. But it is easier, quicker and more reliable if the input is masked so that proper case is returned whether or not the user has pressed the shift key or left the CAPS lock on or whatever. As someone with a long and devoted interest in the user experience, I regard this as a necessity; in the past the lack of this simple function in WinDev has forced me to write special routines to parse the input to produce proper case. In a product like WinDev (or in any product nowadays) this is ridiculous.

It is even more ridiculous when one looks at the input and display masks that are now in WinDev. We have:


  • First letter uppercase
  • All uppercase
  • All lowercase


Pretty standard so far. Let's go on.


  • Letters only
  • Letter only but displayed in upper case
  • The previous two with or without accented characters
  • Digits only
  • Letters and digits
  • Uppercase letters and digits
  • Letter first then either letters or digits (special to France?!)
  • The same as the previous except uppercase letters
  • Numbers with or without commas, points, spaces, plus and minus signs
  • Roman numerals !!! (How often is this used?! Or is it special to Europe? It's certainly special to ancient Romans!)


There are oodles more, too many to include here but they include amongst many others:


  • E-mail addresses
  • Full file names and paths
  • IP addresses (and even IPv6 addresses!)
  • Phone numbers (including a special mask for French phone numbers)
  • VISA, Mastercard, Amex card numbers
  • French company codes including automatic checksums
  • French social security numbers


They can do all these but they can't do proper/title case?

I have made quite a few requests to PC Soft for proper/title case going right back to version 7 of WinDev. As has been mentioned, this is a standard feature in many other languages.

Like many others I came from the Clarion world. While WinDev left Clarion far behind many years ago, I find it quite unbelievable and incomprehensible that WinDev hasn't implemented this almost universal feature which Clarion had a decade ago.

Is it sheer bloody-mindness? Or is it the fact that it's been requested by an Anglophone not a Francophone? Who knows?

Just my little rant. I still go on hoping but now with forlorn hope and no expectations; the developers at PC Soft have not implemented this feature in the past 10 versions of WinDev that I have used.

Chris L
Melbourne, Oz

von Chris L - am 12.01.2012 08:37
Quote
Chris L
Guenter

I have just come across this post and I must take issue with you on one important point: Proper/Title case.

You suggest this is 'special' to English. How so?

How do you write your name? When you write your name, fill in forms, do you write 'günter predl' or do you write 'Günter Predl'? If you use the latter form, as I think most people would do in most countries, then you are using proper case or title case (both names are used).

Going political for a moment: what about your president?

heinz fischer is the österreichischer bundespräsident; his offices are located in the leopoldine wing of the hofburg imperial palace in vienna, austria.

If you don't like lower case, try upper case:

HEINZ FISCHER IS THE ÖSTERREICHISCHER BUNDESPRÄSIDENT; HIS OFFICES ARE LOCATED IN THE LEOPOLDINE WING OF THE HOFBURG IMPERIAL PALACE IN VIENNA, AUSTRIA.

Or would you prefer to use proper/title case and see it written like this.

Heinz Fischer is the Österreichischer Bundespräsident; his offices are located in the Leopoldine Wing of the Hofburg Imperial Palace in Vienna, Austria.

Do you still say proper/title case is special to English?

Why do we need it? For standardising data entry, particularly of names, addresses, places, positions, etc. The user types in a name, first name and last name, perhaps also a middle name or initial. In our database we want this in a standard form for use in reports, lists, letters, whatever. Long gone are the days when printing names in all uppercase letters was acceptable. But without a title case mask you either have to accept what the user inputs, hoping that they've remembered to press the shift key at the right time. Or you manipulate the input by programming to produce the desired result. Most programmers put the onus right back on the user. But it is easier, quicker and more reliable if the input is masked so that proper case is returned whether or not the user has pressed the shift key or left the CAPS lock on or whatever. As someone with a long and devoted interest in the user experience, I regard this as a necessity; in the past the lack of this simple function in WinDev has forced me to write special routines to parse the input to produce proper case. In a product like WinDev (or in any product nowadays) this is ridiculous.

It is even more ridiculous when one looks at the input and display masks that are now in WinDev. We have:


  • First letter uppercase
  • All uppercase
  • All lowercase


Pretty standard so far. Let's go on.


  • Letters only
  • Letter only but displayed in upper case
  • The previous two with or without accented characters
  • Digits only
  • Letters and digits
  • Uppercase letters and digits
  • Letter first then either letters or digits (special to France?!)
  • The same as the previous except uppercase letters
  • Numbers with or without commas, points, spaces, plus and minus signs
  • Roman numerals !!! (How often is this used?! Or is it special to Europe? It's certainly special to ancient Romans!)


There are oodles more, too many to include here but they include amongst many others:


  • E-mail addresses
  • Full file names and paths
  • IP addresses (and even IPv6 addresses!)
  • Phone numbers (including a special mask for French phone numbers)
  • VISA, Mastercard, Amex card numbers
  • French company codes including automatic checksums
  • French social security numbers


They can do all these but they can't do proper/title case?

I have made quite a few requests to PC Soft for proper/title case going right back to version 7 of WinDev. As has been mentioned, this is a standard feature in many other languages.

Like many others I came from the Clarion world. While WinDev left Clarion far behind many years ago, I find it quite unbelievable and incomprehensible that WinDev hasn't implemented this almost universal feature which Clarion had a decade ago.

Is it sheer bloody-mindness? Or is it the fact that it's been requested by an Anglophone not a Francophone? Who knows?

Just my little rant. I still go on hoping but now with forlorn hope and no expectations; the developers at PC Soft have not implemented this feature in the past 10 versions of WinDev that I have used.

Chris L
Melbourne, Oz


Hi Chris,

'title case' is not capitalizing the first character of each and every word in a sentence! See the rules at http://megan-b-wyatt.suite101.com/how-to-write-in-title-case-a73866

So, for a correct title case, a program has to know much more than the start of words.

If you want to have each word of a sentence / name field capitalized then it should be easy to write a small procedure which changes the case of the first character within the input field. Of course, it is not that easy as you'd believe.

frank n. stein is converted to to Frank N. Stein, that's easy.
max mayr-melnhof should change to Max Mayr-Melnhof - not so easy, but treating a hyphen just like a space character should work.
fbi agent should change to FBI Agent
ibm representative to IBM Representative - hell, the software should understand FBI and IBM and ... thousands of othe abbreviations?
alexander van der bellen should be changed to Alexander van der Bellen.
karl-theodor von guttenberg should turn into Karl-Theodor von Guttenberg
giorgio d'este should change to Giorgio d'Este
john f. kennedy jun. should be converted to John F. Kennedy jun.
julius meinl ii. should become Julius Meinl II.
bruno devito should become Bruno deVito

I'd suggest to use a simple rule like 'uppercase the first character of the field plus all characters after a space or a hyphen' and have an [Edit] button which could be used to edit any bad results.

German has strict rules for whether a word starts with an uppercase character or not, there's no such thing like title case and there's no way to decide about style on one's own. There are people favouring an all-in-lowercase style. Such definitely breaks the rules. German language and writing is strongly normalized. Otherwise, the readability of text would degrade a lot.

Heinz Fischer is the Österreichischer Bundespräsident; his offices are located in the Leopoldine Wing of the Hofburg Imperial Palace in Vienna, Austria.

imho, this should read in English
Heinz Fischer is the president of the federal Republic of Austria; his offices are located in the Leopoldine wing of the 'Hofburg', the Imperial Palace in Vienna, Austria.

in German this should read
Heinz Fischer ist der Bundespräsident der Republik Österreich; seine Büros befinden sich im Leopoldinischen Trakt der Hofburg, Wiens ehemaligem Kaiserpalast.

Roman Numerals. Those are still in use every now and then. Imho every youth should be able to read MMXII as 2012. Ok, that's a question of education, the education system and so on.

Bottom line: it should be very easy to make a procedure which scans the input field 'on each change' and capitalizes the first character after a hyphen or a space or the first character of the input field. Plus placing an [Edit] ON/OFF button to the right of the input field which disables / re-enables calling this procedure. Extending this admittedly crude method to a perfect 'title case by the rules' would probably involve writing a whole program.

Clarion. Starting each word with an uppercase character is definitely not 'title case' it even doesn't work for all inputs to a name / address input field. It would take a few minutes to make such a routine using WinDev yourself and while being able to switch off the automatic, any special cases could be handled.

Kind regards,
Guenter

von Jimbo - am 12.01.2012 13:28
Günter

I acknowledge certain valid points in your response. However, nothing in your argument invalidates the need for a 'Title case' or 'Proper case' function as many people would like and use. Nor does anything in your response explain PC Soft’s total intransigence on this simple request.

There are plenty of humorous examples in our industry of end-users confusing computer terms with everyday language. I'm surprised you’ve fallen into a similar trap. You confuse the term 'title case' as used in computer programming with the use of the term in writing and editing; you demonstrate this by citing a writing style guide not a computer programming manual. It is because of this possible confusion that I prefer the term 'proper case' in programming languages and indeed that it generally the function name in languages which do feature this function.

Of course when writing in English, titles are not written with every letter capitalised (though it may be done very occasionally for effect). In English, there is no universal convention determining which words in a title should have a capital first letter and for this reason, the term 'title case' is rarely if every used in this industry. There are two conventions which are used most often but in practice, writers and editors follow the 'house' style which specifies the treatment of titles for their particular publication.

As a native English speaker, and more importantly in this context, as a professional editor and writer of many years' experience, I am very familiar with style guides and I therefore feel quite competent to put my argument on this matter.

As has happened with many computer terms, the use of the term 'title case' in computer programming, at least in the English-speaking world, has diverged from its use in other areas of written English. In computer languages, the terms ‘title case’ or ‘proper case’ are used interchangeably, and do indeed mean the capitalisation of the first letter of every word. It is most often used for names and addresses.

Quote

"If you want to have each word of a sentence / name field capitalized then it should be easy to write a small procedure which changes the case of the first character within the input field.”


This is a specious argument. It is indeed quite easy to write a small procedure to process input as it is typed; I have indeed done this in the past to make up for this deficiency in WinDev.

But it is even easier to write small procedures to capitalise the first word of a sentence or to put every letter into upper- or lower-case yet WinDev nevertheless provides masks for these cases.

It is the fact that it is so easy to write a function or a mask for proper/title case that makes it so hard to understand why a mask and a function have not been implemented in WinDev.

Quote

“Of course, it is not that easy as you'd believe."


It could be regarded as somewhat patronising to suggest that I have not considered all the options and exceptions when using a proper case mask or function for names and addresses. The routines I have written in the past have not only handled the capitalisation of first letters but also dealt with many of the exceptions.

In this country we have such a diversity of immigrants that we must take into account the treatment of surnames which have differing capitalisation. We have plenty of names like O'Connell and McDougal and hyphenated names like Hyde-White and then of course we have the Della Boscas and the de la Harpes as well as the Van Dyks. And that’s only the European names.

Despite all this, I was able to come up with a routine which handled the majority of these variations. It’s true that it’s simply not possible to cover 100% of the entries with perfect accuracy (mainly because people with the same name sometimes write it differently, for instance MacLeod and Macleod, D'Agostino and d'Agostino). However it was possible to cover more than 99% of entries. The few exceptions were easily handled by a small button beside the entry field or a right-click option to accept data exactly as it was typed in.



As a former educator and still a trainer, I have observed first-hand how everyday people (that is people who aren't programmers or computer geeks) use computers and the problems they have with computers. Indeed this user-interaction became a specialty of mine so that at times I was brought into projects specifically to assess the ease of use of software by the intended user. It is from this experience with almost three decades of observation that I recognise the difficulty of accurate data entry and therefore the need for good input masks.

As a side issue, there is also the question of time. While the extra time to press the Shift key might seem very small, multiply this by 10 000 or more when entering names and subjects in a tertiary student database and the time becomes significant. Add to this the time taken to fix incorrect input and it’s no longer a small item.

In my experience far too many programmers give far too little thought to the experience of the end-user. How many programmers actually sit down with an end-user and spend time seeing just how their application is used by those it was designed for?

A function for proper or title case is hardly new in computer circles. The Clarion function was indeed a title/proper case function. But this function appears in other computer languages and applications. For instance:


  • In Python you have the function title()
  • In PHP you use ucwords
  • VB uses the vbProperCase parameter (Microsoft Support says to use this to put a string into title case!)
  • And the PROPER() function has been part of Microsoft Excel for years
  • Even Microsoft Word has a feature for capitalising the first letter of every word!


It’s such a simple function that I can’t see why PC Soft haven’t given this as a half-day project to one of their trainee developers. At the very least they should be able to come up with something which at least matches the functionality of the proper/title case functions in other languages. But WinDev boasts such advanced functions generally that I would have thought it a fairly basic exercise for PC Soft to produce a quite sophisticated function.

I look forward to the day. But I won't hold my breath waiting! After all, despite more than a decade with the English-language version of WinDev, PC Soft have yet to use a native-English speaker to edit their Help files! (And other anglicised parts of WinDev.)

Chris L
Melbourne, Oz


Postscript
Quote

Heinz Fischer is the president of the federal Republic of Austria


In English we would write “Heinz Fischer is the President of the Federal Republic of Austria”. In this case, ‘president’ is a title referring to a specific office , not a general term. Similarly we refer to Barak Obama as the President (not ‘president’) of the United States of America and Angela Merkel as the Chancellor of Germany. Likewise we also capitalise ‘Federal’ in referring formally to your country.

von Chris L - am 26.01.2012 05:11
Chris L - EXCELLENT post, and one that I pray gets read by someone within PC Soft that can resolve this longstanding issue. If this, and my listbox problem regarding incremental search (posted elsewhere on this forum) get resolved I might be able to abandon Clarion 8 and return to WinDev... I don't need cloud computing or cell phone application functionality - I need far simpler fixes to WinDev that deal specifically with enduser experience on a desktop, and this issue is one of them.

von Scott Daughtry - am 26.01.2012 15:04
Hi Chris,
you say you wrote several routines in the past for the "proper case issue".
So what are you missing then?

Maybe you can share these routines with us? I'm sure someone is willing to convert it to W-language.
If it is in VB or Delphi or C or languages like that, it easy to create a dll. Which can then be used in WD and there is no need to convert code at all.

Just an idea.....

von Arie - am 26.01.2012 15:31
My eyes start to gloss over every time I start reading these types of threads. They usually begin with "Why can't PCSoft do... It's such a simple request, my other puny highly localized tool used to do it".

Quote
Arie Mars
Hi Chris,
you say you wrote several routines in the past for the "proper case issue".
So what are you missing then?


That it probably does not work properly for EVERYBODY in the world in EVERY language that PCSoft supports in Wx? Chris even says so.

I don't care if you call it Title Case or Proper Case or Get Off My Case, making the base software handle EVERY different permeation of Title/Proper/Get Off for EVERY different society in the world in EVERY different language PCS supports is not a simple half day project for an intern and will never work properly for everybody in every language. Each country and each person may have their own rules - even Chris points this out, and yet....

This case stuff is a LOCAL (as in NON-GLOBAL) requirement that should be handled at a LOCAL level, not globally by PCS. While PCS may give us MASKS, they tend to be global formats, much like emailaddress@someisp.com. Do the LOCAL work locally and let PCS handle issues that are common to the global community. Don't be myopic and selfish only to your needs and expect PCS to hold your hand.

And if you want to say "well, Clarion did that for me" remember Clarion is small potatoes, servicing a smaller part of the world in only ENGLISH and can cater to the locals. Wx caters more to the world community with multiple languages and concentrates on giving us solutions that benefit everybody in the world, not just specific corners of it.

JMO, of course.

von A Bonds - am 26.01.2012 16:57
About WEBDEV!

WEBDEV 16 is the most terrible product I've ever used. WEBDEV 17 (have had the chance to test it) it not significantly better.
And no, Sorry folks, I am not in the mood to write a 100 page error/bug report. All I am willing to say is, Project irrevocable destroyed while working, , WEBKIT based browser support, Nada, Layout system, wtf, etc *100
I am extreme disappointed. IMHO WEBDEV incl. 17 is in early alpha state. Don;t use it, and more important : Don't buy it.

If I have to pick up up something good than this :
" Thanks you PCS: You gave me the necessary kick to create my own Development-System. " Stay tuned.

Sincerly ,

von BLS (Bjoern Lietz-Spendig) - am 29.01.2012 02:22
Hi all,

For me (and for what it's worth) I tend to agree that a bug fix list would be EXTREMELY helpful. In fact, having just updated V12 (all producsts) to V14, I note some of my original 'issues' / bugs remain whilst others seem to have gone - naturally the 'gone' ones are so visible as the outstanding ones !! ).

Again, for what it's worth - I'm equally interested in new features AND bug fixes. Currently I'm convincing myself to upgrade to V17 (all products WD, WB and WM) BUT am extremely reticent to do so (until stability & any major bug fix issues have been sorted out).

A bug fix list would certainly 'do it' for me... just seems to make sense (PCS must surely have a list - like Corona and other SDK suppliers, app. sellers etc. ) don't know about anyone else - just seems sensible / pretty straight forward to me !

Anyway, onwards and upwards I guess...

von MaryG - am 29.01.2012 08:24
Guenter,

Shouldn't this be in the ranting corner?

pffffffff

von Carlo Hermus - am 29.01.2012 10:12
Hi Bjoern,

it´s true, Webdev has a lot of bugs inside. Thats why a daily full backup of the whole project is necessary.

Last week I found a nice bug (costs me the last hair on my head :-)):
Try to put these information text in a edit field: Please enter "Other"
Then run your website. Nothing happens anymore. It looks like webdev can´t display the "" in the information text. I lost a day because I roll back every change of my site step by step.

What I need is the anchor possibilities of Webdev 17 to create fullsize Pages with tables.
Have you tested this feature ?

von Michael Drechsel - am 29.01.2012 11:00
Hmmm,

I am convincing myself (like others, I'm sure) to upgrade to V17 - I currently have all products in V14) but...

I tend to agree that a bug list and (more importantly) bug fix list would remove any doubts. Generally I am not updating for new features - rather for fixed existing features / bugs !

At the current time it would appear this is at best a 'suck it and see' upgrade path - in that there appears to be no simple method to tell which bugs / features have been fixed / improved in any new version until you buy and try it.

I also work with other products and each one (to be completely fair) has a bug fix list accompanying each new revision / version. Surely it can't be THAT hard for PCS to do the same ?

Probably still won't stop me trying 17... but then, maybe I should wait for 18 (in the hope that gives PCS even more time to fix the existing V14 bugs) ?

Decisions... decisions...

von Ian - am 29.01.2012 18:02
Hi all. I love windev 16 . made an app with it I would not have been able to make in any other ide. I have allready bought the upgrade to version 17.

I bought webdev 16. With upgrade to 17 a view weeks ago. Still trying things out but am already beginning to love it. I have made a website in php and mysql in a view days. It is 40 % working. Its aa breeze coding in wlanguage. While I was coding I t was sutch a breez that I am now creating my own cms system. Verry cool.

I hope that version 17 does support css. as pc soft states in the version discription. But its the easiest development ide to create web apps on mysql and php using ajax.

Allard

von Allard - am 30.01.2012 16:36
Hi Allard,

You said: "It is 40 % working"

40% is easy. It's the last 10% that takes another 90% of the budgeted time...:-)

best regards
Ola

von Ola - am 31.01.2012 08:44
Hi,

Has anybody been able to translate the PDF document outlining the new features to English ?

Kind Regards
Christo Klein

von Christo - am 31.01.2012 12:21
All,

Glenn Rathke, Softdesign Consulting, has been kind enough to address the Proper Case issue within his excellent WinDev tutorial series. I recently purchased his training video / workbook series and started chatting with him about the Proper Case data entry mask.. within two days he not only had the basic functionality worked out, but has modified it several times to extend its functionality into a global function that can be used for string manipulation as well as data entry field REALTIME validation. He also has a QBE SuperControl function within his WinDev training series that addresses a longtime issue for me - WinDev's lack of a QBE that can be linked to a ComboBox control! The QBE even allows the enduser to save queries that they've created for recall. I've asked him if his QBE can be tweaked so it can be called prior to a report being generated - and he has been kind enough to explore that added functionality.

I purchased his WinDev training set only a few days ago, but already see that it is well worth the $$$ - with over 17 HOURS of online training + the example app + the workbook, combined with Glenn's willingness to extend the tutorial to include new material is simply phenomenal. If you are looking for a training package that goes past the WinDev tutorial book, or even if you're an experienced WinDev developer (which I am certainly NOT), this is WELL WORTH the asking price! For more info about Glenn's WinDev training materiel his web site (built with WebDev) is here: http://www.sdcdev.net/

von Scott Daughtry - am 03.05.2012 15:29
I got my upgrade yesterday and try play around WD17 today .
I don't see much improvement .
here what I found so far
- there are few new style
- new control (ribbon and organization chart control) .
- 'info()' can show chinese/japanese character data which is stored in the mysql database , retrieve using query object .

things that not fix
- analysis , still unable to create link between table to table correctly for external database . you have to do the modify your self .

- query object still unable to call stored procedure without turn on the option 'HQuerywithoutCorrection' .


this is what I can tell so far . I not sure how well the unicode handling in wd7 but so far what bugs in wd16 , fix in wd7 .

my biggest issue now is , I unable to convert my wd16 project to wd17 project . I create alot of control template in my project and all give error when convert to wd17.

von ccc2 - am 05.05.2012 18:23
- input mask for textbox is still ansi only . if you want to use unicode character , you can't use input mask . I guess the claim of wd17 is fully unicode is another bullshit .

- wd17 ide still 32bit this mean native access is also 32bit .

von ccc2 - am 05.05.2012 18:34
It is only the BETA version.
Be patient - you never know your luck

von DerekT - am 06.05.2012 09:42
Should we inform PC Soft about Bugs in WX17 ?

I found 2 in 1 hour:

WB17 Table anchor doesn´t work in height (all Browsers) and in weight (only FF, Chrome, Opera)

WB17 Table Column Width Justify doesn´t work at runtime with Chrome

The experience with WX12,14,15,16 was that they put it in "Final" Status with a lot of Bugs :-(((((

von Michael Drechsel - am 06.05.2012 09:48
Quote
Michael Drechsel
Should we inform PC Soft about Bugs in WX17 ?

I found 2 in 1 hour:

WB17 Table anchor doesn´t work in height (all Browsers) and in weight (only FF, Chrome, Opera)

WB17 Table Column Width Justify doesn´t work at runtime with Chrome

The experience with WX12,14,15,16 was that they put it in "Final" Status with a lot of Bugs :-(((((


Hi Michael, as I'm constantly saying: tell PC Soft support about all of the bugs you find. Regardless of 'beta' or 'final'. Concurrently, put your report as a comment into the online Help System of the related Wx product, this makes sure that other developers are warned. Plus, the visibility of those comments makes it more likely to get bugs fixed - though there's virtually no guarantee of a fix. Kind regards, Guenter

von Jimbo - am 06.05.2012 10:37
Ok, I send 2 requests to PC Soft.

The table anchor possibilities of WB17 was the reason for me it to buy. If this not work like expected it is useless for me ...

von Michael Drechsel - am 06.05.2012 10:41
- Problem with ribbon control, when maximize mdi child windows the minimize/maximize/close button gone

von ccc2 - am 07.05.2012 08:45
Hi,

I had play around with wd17 for days now during this times , I encounter alot of bugs with the ide. it make me wonder , if wd17 beta english released 6 month after french version ,and still with this many of bugs then how french version look like? how do french user use wd17 ?

von ccc2 - am 09.05.2012 11:11
Good Question ...

von Michael Drechsel - am 09.05.2012 11:21
Quote
ccc2
Hi,

I had play around with wd17 for days now during this times , I encounter alot of bugs with the ide. it make me wonder , if wd17 beta english released 6 month after french version ,and still with this many of bugs then how french version look like? how do french user use wd17 ?


Hi, WHICH bugs, could you go into (concise) detail? Did you send a notification to PC Soft? Regards, Guenter

von Jimbo - am 09.05.2012 11:38
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