Diese Seite mit anderen teilen ...

Informationen zum Thema:
Forum:
WinDev Forum
Beiträge im Thema:
20
Erster Beitrag:
vor 4 Jahren, 6 Monaten
Letzter Beitrag:
vor 4 Jahren, 6 Monaten
Beteiligte Autoren:
Steven Sitas, Al, stefan.kern, kimor, Arnaud Benhamdine, DarrenF, James Smiths, Michel Fages - InfoGones, Luiz Menezes, ICI, ... und 6 weitere

[WD18] Why did PCSoft release a bug ridden version ?

Startbeitrag von Al am 30.06.2013 00:08

Hello All

PCSoft must have known there were problems in V18 before they released it.

The only conclusion is that their current business model forced them to release it to maintain a revenue stream.

PCSoft's business model is totally flawed and works against them because it concentrates their income stream into a couple of big explosions of income when they release a new version, one to their French users and then again to their non French users. They further concentrate this revenue to a small time frame by pushing us to purchase upgrades quickly after release by offering substantial discounts. After that income arrives, their only revenue sources during the next year are new sales, the LST and consulting services.

The result of this is that, if they do not release a new version they have no income stream and must draw on reserves and that is not sustainable for any business.

This flawed business model is also the reason behind the 999 new features as they are a desperate attempt to drive the takeup of the new versions and gain revenue.

In the past I have urged PCSoft to switch to a maintenance model where we all pay a maintenance fee per year, on the anniversary of our initial purchase.
PCSoft would get a guaranteed income stream spread out over the year, the pressure on their development team would disappear, they would be able to develop new ideas and release them in a staged manner for testing by developers and we would all just roll on year after year with no problems as we would receive updates during the year. This is how every other major software company conducts business.

PCSoft have brought this current mess upon themselves and us and now is the time to fix it.

I would have no problem with purchasing a maintenance release as at this moment it is in all our interests to work together with PCSoft to help them out of this mess, and if putting in another few hundred Euro from each of us is what it takes, then so be it, because the alternative is to start searching for a new development language and Windev is still the best for small developers providing business apps.


Regards
Al

Antworten:

Al
I do agree with you and possibly PCS do need to revisit their business model/strategy.
In the early days it was, maybe, feasible to add 100's of features to build up to a product with pretty much all a developer needed in one place.

Now with 3 IDE's to maintain and ever changing technology, to achieve the year on year seems to be getting much harder if indeed possible.

Problem is that they have set the precedent of the 'all in one package - no add ons required'.
Personally I find a lot of the new features to be a bit obscure but I am sure that for someone out there it will be the answer to their problems.

The issue this time, if I have read correctly, is that regression testing has taken a back seat and some of the more 'bread and butter' functions have been compromised.
It may well be that with their resources now required to provide fixes for the current crop of issues that the annual release cycle will be broken.

Like you I would be prepared to pay an annual fee and receive regular maintenance upgrades.
Could be a 'hard sell' though as technically at the outset all of us would be paying again for what we thought we had already purchased.

Unfortunately the world is now broken and many of the business principles that we, the older generations, grew up with appear to be on the side lines as companies search for revenue streams.
For now we must put our faith in PCS to re-establish themseleves to what IMO has been a a provider class leading development tools.

von DerekT - am 30.06.2013 08:57
Hi guys,

I couldn't agree more - could I?

I also think that PCSoft is wasting some of their resources in trying to comply with all the new fashionable three-letter acronyms a bit too hastily. In the beginning (the 900 + Wx version number of new features) their efforts only produce some clipped , clapped and cropped results (to just fill the empty space between the many long, skinny legs in the brochure) , and finally, when and if they get their act right, many of the new brave acronyms have died and been buried in the endless bit cemetery.

br
Ola

von Ola (at another machine) - am 30.06.2013 09:49
Hi Al,

I support your idea fully.
If PCSoft again brings out a version 19 with only 999 feature and girls, I will move step by step to a different development system.
This will cost me a lot of money, but enough for me, the dependence of PCSoft!

Regards

Tom

von tomkra - am 30.06.2013 10:00
:spos: LIKE

Maybe someone on the US conference can get into touch with PCSoft people and handover these posts!

von Arie - am 30.06.2013 14:25
Hi Al,
what problems do you have with v18?

Steven Sitas

von Steven Sitas - am 30.06.2013 15:25
Hello Steven

Good question. Only a few minor ones I have added to the bug list and a problem with views that was fixed after I loaded version 62j. However there are reports on this forum from French speaking developers and I took Fabrice's advice and looked on the PCSoft French Language Forum ( Bing is not bad at translating it) and it makes for depressing reading with many bugs listed and some comfirmed by tech support. There are also complaints about the new groupware and it crashed when I tested the first release and the design of it also is pretty bad but I haven't tried it since.

This is a typical post on the French Forum
Since the shift to version 01F180062h we encounter the following problem:
-A table entry with a seizure (COL1) column and the other in display only (COL2).
-Take for example the table is populated with 20 lines.
-If I'm in (COL1) input on the 3rd line to highlight the input I have to click on the COL1 click e.g. on line 8 of COL2 not positioned me on the 8th line as it was before.
This worked prior to the shift to the 01F180062h version (we had before 01F180056f)
Answer :
Thanks for these elements of reproduction. I well observed the described operation.
I'm really sorry for this problem. The problem was transmitted to our developers, who will examine it. An incident with reference #83 075/319792 was registered.

Try this link for more depressing news. It would appear that the compiler is much stricter with its interpretation of name, reserved words, control names etc
http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=&to=en&a=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.pcsoft.fr%2Ffr-FR%2Fpcsoft.fr.windev%2F161678-bug-sur-62h-champ-table-inconnu%2Fread.awp

The main problem, apart from the bugs, is that PCSoft do not make any public statements so there is no way of knowing the true level of the problem. Even when they release an update version like 62j there is no mention if anything has been fixed or what is remaining to be fixed. I do appreciate that it is impossible for each release to be bug free, but PCSoft need to publish some info regarding the problems so we can avoid them and get some confidence in V18.

Regards
Al

von Al - am 30.06.2013 17:33
Hi Al
Couldn't agree more & what is truly depressing is that it has been this way since v8 that I know of (when I came on board) & probably even before that. The problem does seem to be getting worse though, probably as someone else has commented because of the 3 versions.

In the early days I upgraded each release but since v11 I have only upgraded every 3rd one, generally middle to end of the cycle so I've had the opportunity to see the comments here & decide if it is worth a punt. Not the way I like to operate but it spares me the angst every year & financially it's not much different. Like most of us I would quite happily forgo 999 new features each year, most of which are useless to me anyway for a solid, reliable product where any bugs are fixed in a timely fashion.

Another (non development) product we work with charges 15% of RRP per annum for bug fixes, enhancements, new releases etc. Every 2nd Friday they have any changes available for download. A new release only occurs every 5 years or so but in the meantime everyone who pays their money gets fixes, new features & so on on an on-going basis. It's not really hard to sell, works well & provides a large on-going revenue stream for the company. It's not perfect, like PCS they are a bit secretive about bugs reported & features they are working on but if PCS were to adopt something similar they'd be getting my money each year!

David

von David Egan - am 30.06.2013 20:16
Hi Al,
I am also following the french newsgroup.
The compiler problem you mention has been fixed and there is a patch available.
I agree with you that a database of "bugs" would be very helpfull.

Steven Sitas

von Steven Sitas - am 30.06.2013 20:42
Hi to all. Do you have a problem with Reports based on query v.62j.
All my reports are market for "error information" and I can see that all my reports
based on query and marked editable for Report&Query's for user (exe version) are not correct. "Report is accessible but query is not" ?????

von ICI - am 01.07.2013 09:33
Hi @ All,

coming from visual foxpro and after testing some different other tools (Servoy etc) I found Windev as a new development tool. I started with Version 15 and first I was really impressed.
The concepts is close to that I used in Foxpro, developing for Web and Mobile was very interesting.
I did a few projects with 15, ok ... there where some bugs but I found workarounds.

Now I have a two month delay in delivering a mobile software to the customer. I started the Softwaret in WM15, it worked fine in Win Mobile 6.1 but did not work in Win Mobile 5.0.
I learned from the french forum thats it was a problem/Bug in the framework of WM15.

OK, let's upgrade to v18, I told the customer to wait until V18 is available.

I purchased v18, and was not able to compile .... According to PC Soft Support a problem which needed a fix or upgrade (62j) ... OK, I told the customer to wait 2 weeks more .... 62j installed and .... a big nightmare. The app uses a DotNet assembly to acess a printer in a mobile POS System .... I can not generate a proper Setup if I include the DotNet assembly in the project. If I exclude it, it works fine ... Ok, I am waiting for the response of PC Soft ....and what to tell the customer ???????

I really like the products of PC Soft, but at the moment I am the opinion, it is not possible to produce Software with WX in a reliable manner .....

PC Soft, I think you people need to do something, I agree with some posts in this forum that PC Soft needs to change there busines model. I am willing to pay for a maintenance Upgrade (V18.5 or V19) without any new features but with a reliable product, I also agree with paying an amount on yearly basis to PC Soft or whatever, but this product which is great needs to become stable.

I am going to start a new project the next weeks, and I wonder myself wheather it is better to switch to Visual Studio or Delphi. This would cause month of learning, but if PC Soft can not produce a stable product, that should be my way.

Just my 5 cents at a frustrating day spending hours of building a setup procedure,

Stefan.

von stefan.kern - am 03.07.2013 20:31
Hi All,

After reading your posts, it seems that almost everyone agree that WX are good tools to develop applications but recently the new features = new bugs and that is unacceptable from us, who are customers of pcsoft. In my country we say customer is the king but here I see that we are slaves waiting for new features (new bugs).

To make our voices heared by PCSOFT, I suggest we write a petition with names and companies to express our dissatisfaction of this buggy version and also to stop looking for beautiful girls to display them on their products instead they need very good programmers.

Aelfassi.

von Aelfassi - am 03.07.2013 21:21
I want to agree with the above users. Stable Tools with Stable Final Applications are necessary and essential.

This is Their Business and that is Our Business. We all want the better. So why not listen to developers and solve old problems.

Now we have a new service through video conferencing and maybe this can help, but not everyone can afford the cost. One idea would be to gather 3 experienced developers and these bring the problems and greatest needs to PC-Soft.

The only implementation that I asked for PC-Soft was the FAA: Table Filters with "Range" (Greater Then And Smaller Then), "Between" (Between two Dates), or similar thing. Concatenation of Filters with Ands and Ors would be better. This was in V11 of Windev/Webdev/WindevMobile. They answered it was a good idea but never done in the 612 + 714 + 815 + 917 + 918 New Features.

The first thing I search when there is a new "900 New Features" is to look for a better Filter in Tables.

Without this feature it is very difficult for us to migrate tens of applications we have in VB.


If I can not have this feature (which saves lots of coding and workarounds), at least one stable tool that generates reliable applications we must have.

von Luiz Menezes - am 03.07.2013 22:27
Hi,

the Idea with the petition is good, I would sign it.
At my opinion there should be 2 major issues:
1.) A stable version
2.) A listing of known bugs, so if something does not work we became sure that it is a bug in windev and not a bug in the own code.

The service with video conferences may be good for huge projects, but EUR 1300,00 per day is a lot, if you design small or medium apps, which are sold for small amounts.

von stefan.kern - am 04.07.2013 11:03
Hi All,
I think one of the bigger problems is that PCS is focusing on the French market.
Here are a few things that points that out:
- About six months after the French release, the English version is released
- No english LST
- No videos since v16 (should be more instructional as well)
- The Honolulu WebDev website is only released with French version
- And more...

I believe that the French customers get more for the money. I know that LST is extra
but it's not even available in english.

The thing with the bugs is caused partly by first developing a French version and then in English.
They should make only one version, the English. Still, in the second release of v18,2
the IDE and error messages are "infested" with French. I do not know French...
French is not the international language and probably never will, Well, not until PCS
is long gone anyway...

To make two versions is also not cost effective. Having people working six additional months
with the english version is wasting both time and money. New technoligies should be implemented as soon as possible before they become obselete. Six months has passed before we can take
advantage of the new technology/functions.

They also should get rid of the girls...Who demanded them? I'm embarresed to pick up a book in public cause I feel like a perv. It doesn't look serious... Will the French customers abandon PCS if thery're gone?

I don't know if PCS is satisified with their 100,000 customers in France but I'm quite sure that if PCS adopted a
new business strategy they would have a lot more international customers cause the idea with their software IS good.

Well, that's just my thoughts...


Regards,
Kim O'Regan

von kimor - am 11.07.2013 20:24
Hi,

I'm a french user of WD/WB.
I confirm that we french users are all fed up with the girls on official brochures, but unfortunately, despite of several emails, mails.. to PCS, they persist in including them everywhere... I think the cause should be a perv in the marketing management....

Indeed, PCS is actually mainly concerned with his french customers, because of his (relative) strong market share in dev tools in France. Besides, you have to know that lots of french users (not all) would not be confortable with an english-only version.

Regarding the need of a list of known bugs, it will be very very appreciated : it's a frequent request.
Actually, i'm currently working on the feasibility to publish such a list with other french users, but it rises some legal matters, especially regarding the well-known sensitivity of PCS on this subjet.

Quote
kimor
Hi All,
I think one of the bigger problems is that PCS is focusing on the French market.
Here are a few things that points that out:
- About six months after the French release, the English version is released
- No english LST
- No videos since v16 (should be more instructional as well)
- The Honolulu WebDev website is only released with French version
- And more...

I believe that the French customers get more for the money. I know that LST is extra
but it's not even available in english.

The thing with bugs and so is caused partly by developing a French version and then in English.
They should make only one version, the English. Still, in the second release of v18,2
the IDE and error messages are "infested" with French. I do not know French...
French is not the international language and probably never will, Well, not until PCS
is long gone anyway...

To make two versions is also not cost effective. Having people working for six months
extra with the english version is wasting both time and money. New technoligies should be implemented as soon as possible before they become obselete. Six months has passed before we can take
advantage of the new technology/functions.

They also should get rid of the girls...Who demanded them? I'm embarresed to pick up a book in public cause I feel like a perv. It doesn't look serious... Will the French customers abandon PCS if thery're gone?

I don't know if PCS is satisified with their 100,000 customers in France but I'm quite sure that if PCS adopted a
new business strategy they would have a lot more international customers cause the idea with their software IS good.

Well, that's just my thoughts...


Regards,
Kim O'Regan


von Arnaud Benhamdine - am 12.07.2013 09:01
Hello Al,

I've been using PcSoft tools since 1988 (even before WinDev existed).

The only advice I give : Never ever use the latest version of the products before it's 9 to 12 months old. This lets time to rashest of us to debug for PcSoft. I've seen people nearly crashing their business because of instabilities of new versions.

It can be frustrating, but this is a lot of spared time and headaches.
J2MC...

Michel Fages
InfoGones
http://www.infogones.com

von Michel Fages - InfoGones - am 12.07.2013 13:04
Good point Michel, Sadly we will all have to wait until that.

von James Smiths - am 12.07.2013 17:08
Hi to all,
Although I see some valid points, posted here, things are not so "dramatic".
My WinDEV enviroment (v17) is currently MORE rock solid (and complete) than MS VS, Delphi or Clarion.

(1) Is it perfect ?
Ofcourse not

(2) Is it better than other environments?
If you find one that is more complete and more rock solid than WD 17, go for it and also pass the suggestion to me also :)

(3) An English version of LST?
That would be a GREAT plus.
But since I awknowledge that it may not return the money back to PC Soft, I would like to suggest something else.
Give the subscribers of the FRENCH LST the LST in a PDF form also.
Then the user can translate the PDF automatically to English.
As a subscriber to LST, I have to scan it and then pass it through OCR and I get an English version.
But it takes time ....

(4) How about the current version 18?
I have played a little with v18 and haven't seen any problems.
But I will only use it in production after September
This is PC Softs production cycle and I have to comply with it, so I don't get in any trouble - simple as that.

(5) Sexy girls ?
I have no problems with them and I don't really see all the "fuss" about them ...
Could be a of course a "cultural thing".
I talked about it with my wife and daughter and they don't have a problem with it - they said finally something in the house that is not as "dull" as my math or classic programming books ....

Everybody have a nice weekend

von Steven Sitas - am 12.07.2013 18:12
Hi all,

As for (3) - could an English LST be on it's way?
http://27130.foren.mysnip.de/read.php?27131,165437

For the 1st time, PCS (more accurately - Jerome @ PCS), seems to be open to conversation on the subject and think (as I speak... maybe), is gathering the stats as to how much interest there is from the English speakers out there.

I just feel a little dismayed that PCS don't take the plunge. I've seen a copy of a recent LST and it's glossy alright. It's well produced but doesn't consist of a lot of pages at all! In todays digital age, this magazine + DVD shouldn't take an army to produce it - I think the potential volume is there, we just need a software vendor with a will to do it.

Get in touch with PCS - register your interest (see the link above)...

von DarrenF - am 12.07.2013 22:08
Zur Information:
MySnip.de hat keinen Einfluss auf die Inhalte der Beiträge. Bitte kontaktieren Sie den Administrator des Forums bei Problemen oder Löschforderungen über die Kontaktseite.
Falls die Kontaktaufnahme mit dem Administrator des Forums fehlschlägt, kontaktieren Sie uns bitte über die in unserem Impressum angegebenen Daten.