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vor 4 Jahren, 7 Monaten
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LST in English

Startbeitrag von Mauricio am 09.07.2013 13:47

Hi,
Jerome, from PCSoft, has posted this in our Skype chat about Windev:

LST in English !
I heard this many times this days.
If you want LST in english, I will need numbers of people who'll be able to buy it.
So please send me an email to jerome.aerts@pcsoft.fr saying that you would buy LST in english.
We just would like to know how many people will be interested by the LST in english
Thanks

So, don't miss this opportunity!!!

Antworten:

Just sent Jerome this message:

I will buy if price is same as French version.

von a bonds - am 09.07.2013 14:39
I've mailed Jerome that I would buy. I also mailed:

Hi Jerome,

I think PCSoft is very conservative towards the English users. A lot of information is still only available in French. Often text is not translated in English (some options in English WinDev, your website, etc)
YouTube video's are seldom translated to English. And of course LST is not available in English.

So when you ask community the question "how many users will buy LST in English", I return the question "How serious is PCSoft in going international" by investing in the English speaking users. So present them with the tools and trust that the community will grow.

Best regards,

Adri

von Adri - am 09.07.2013 15:31
Hello Adri

I too have replied to Jerome indicating I would purchase

I think you have addressed the broader issue very well. It should never be a question as to how many of us would purchase it before PCSoft deems we are eligible to recieve the LST in English. It is a question of fairness and a willingness to invest properly in all their clients equally.

Regards
Al

von Al - am 09.07.2013 15:38
Also in another email sent to Jerome:

> Another question is "will an LST attract new users who are currently leary of buying WinDev because there currently is no LST?"

von a bonds - am 09.07.2013 17:56
I would not give a blank cheque to PCSoft. I might very well buy English language LST's if they have sufficiently interesting contents.
But the chance of me buying them would definitely much higher than buying any French language LST.

Br
Ola

P.S. I suppose that LST means "Landing Ship, Tank":rp:
Possibly the ones PCSoft is selling are those they used for conquering the pacific island they show in their brochures:confused:

von Ola (at another machine) - am 10.07.2013 08:49
Hi Ola,

I assume that any English LSTs will be a straight and hopefully good translation of the corresponding French LSTs. Very much like WinDev, WebDev US etc. are translated products of their French counterparts. So, there would be LST #123FR and LST #123US - I simply can't imagine any other approach.

von GuenterP - am 10.07.2013 09:18
Hi Guenter

actually, that may prove to be NOT quite that simple...

Each LST includes sources, projects, examples, and those are made for a specific tool version...

In other words, the LST coming out this month is fully for version 18... But the LST from january was partly for 17 and a little for 18, while the one in march was probably already only for 18... Including specific example for the new 18 functionnalities

Now, when you consider that the US version of the tool is about 6 months LATE, compared to the french one, and you wonder what they are gonna do:
- publish the US LSTs 6 months late too?
- publish them at the same time than the french ones, but you wont be able to use them because you don't have the new tool yet?
- publish a completely separate edition?

nope.... definitely NOT that simple

Best regards

von Fabrice Harari - am 10.07.2013 13:14
I know the solution. Switch to English only. Maybe then, the next time we hear a French person speak English, we might understand him :)

von Adri - am 10.07.2013 14:11
Good points Fabrice.

von David Martin - am 10.07.2013 14:12
Hi Fabrice,

I'd expect the most simple (= most cost efficient) approach:
Since the US Wx-products are 5 - 6 months behind the French ones - the US-LSTs will be too.

Much as with the time lag between English and French versions I don't see a big problem with LSTs.
Those good (& poor) French guys are testing the new wx-product-versions and after the worst quality problems are fixed .. and so on.
Ok, maybe, they aren't that happy with their guinea-pig roles ... you see, god has made people different and perhaps there was a good plan behind, who knows? Just joking.

von GuenterP - am 10.07.2013 14:19
Hi, I'm just quoting:

According to a demographic projection led by the Université Laval and the Réseau Démographie de l'Agence universitaire de la francophonie, French speakers will number approximately 500 million people in 2025 and 650 million people, or approximately 7% of the world's population by 2050.[8][9]

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_language

von GuenterP - am 10.07.2013 15:05
Jerome just put me on his list.
(but I already have the French ones so he will lose one on the other side....)

von Arie - am 10.07.2013 15:38
Quote
Arie Mars
Jerome just put me on his list.
(but I already have the French ones so he will lose one on the other side....)


Life's tough, isn't it?

von GuenterP - am 10.07.2013 16:06
Sent Jerome this message:

"We just would like to know how many people will be interested by the LST in english"

I'm interested.

Best Regards,

Luiz Alfredo Guimarães Menezes
Newdata Informática e Sistemas Ltda.

============================

The only implementation that I asked for PC-Soft was the FAA: Table Filters with "Range" (Greater Then And Smaller Then), "Between" (Between two Dates), or similar thing. Concatenation of Filters with Ands and Ors would be better. This was in V11 of Windev/Webdev/WindevMobile. They answered it was a good idea but never done in the 612 + 714 + 815 + 917 + 918 New Features.

The first thing I search when there is a new "900 New Features" is to look for a better Filter in Tables.

Without this feature it is very difficult for us to migrate tens of applications we have in VB.

Thanks.

Luiz Alfredo Guimarães Menezes
Newdata Informática e Sistemas Ltda.

================

Received this response:

"
Hi Luiz alfredo,
OK I note that.
Please do not hesitate to contact me for any additional information.

Best Regards.

"
===============

Now, I think we'll have LST in English, and/or, Better Filters in Tables.

von Luiz Menezes - am 10.07.2013 17:05
Hi

Iam interrested as well.

regards

Allard

von Allard - am 13.07.2013 18:59
Hello,
I was already buying the French version. Send an email as well for the English version.

von Frans - am 13.07.2013 21:47

LST in English

Hello,
I was already buying the French version. Send an email as well for the English version.

Regards,
Jan

von Jan de Bruin - am 14.07.2013 07:38
Hi

I am interrested as well.

regards
Tor-Bjarne

von Tor-Bjarne - am 15.07.2013 11:44
I too am on the fence about committing to PC Soft as our development tools because of their lack of commitment to the English developer community. The tools appear to be really good, but if we need to learn French first, then the "develop 10 times faster" no longer holds true...

If I were to commit, I would also invest in training and learning tools such as the LST, so for me, this translates into a $ 3118 usd sale plus the subscription of an English LST.

So PCSoft, you really need to do this while you have the opportunity as these windows of opportunity doesn't stay open for ever...

Count me in on the English LST. A copy of this was also emailed to: jerome.aerts@pcsoft.fr

Thanks,
Stanley Barnett

von StanleyBarnett - am 09.01.2016 23:33
HI

I think the "develop 10 times faster" is as smart marketing tricks as the skinny girls.

There used to be a RAD development contest (I think in the Nederlands) where developers using different toolboxes had to develop the same application within a short time frame (I think it was 48 hours) . The application that was most complete won.

Some Dutch Clarion developers won this price several years in a row (No I dont know if Windev was represented, but for the argue let say they where) is Clarion now 11 times faster? - Or is it the knowledge and speed of the developer(s) that make you win?

I would hate to go in a contest like this with any tool, if my competitors where Fabrice, Gunter, Peter Halsted and so forth.. (A lot of other bright names not mentioned, please fill in .......) :)

Cheers
Tor-Bjarne

von Tor-Bjarne - am 10.01.2016 16:17
It was indeed a contest in the Netherlands, often won by the Rens brothers (Radventure) using Clarion. I think winning the contest has a lot to do with the quality of their framework.

Coming from Clarion and using WinDev for 5 years now, I can say that the difference maybe is not in the speed of developing but more in the quality of applications you can build for multiple platforms. The difference between Clarion and WinDev is huge.

Although I'm not happy with the way PCSoft treats it's English customers and WinDev/WebDev has it's flaws, I'm still very happy with the product.

Cheers,
Adri

von Adri - am 10.01.2016 20:23
hmm first message from 2013
still no English LST !!!!

:o:mad:

very chauvinistic, french people !!

von Jan de Bruin - am 11.01.2016 01:41
Hi all,

Off the back of this thread (back in July 2013), I was discussing this subject with Jerome @ PCS via email. At the time Jerome kindly mailed me a copy of the LST magazine so I could (with my limited appreciation of the French language), gauge what all the "fuss" was about. The LST magazine (as I expected) is a well produced, good quality and useful publication, but is it worth the subscription price tag? Well, that's for each individual to decide.

Good, bad or a combination of the two; we all know how PCS (seem to) operate from a business perspective, but I'm going to put this idea "out there"... just because nobody has suggested it thus far and I feel a more organised and focused "community" voice might be what we need in situations like this.

Here goes.. If we the (and I reluctantly differentiate us as the English speaking) dev community are as serious about an English version of the LST as we seem to be, is there a way for us as the EDC (English speaking Dev Community), to attempt to open up dialogue with PCS "as a group" in an attempt to get an English LST to become a reality? I'm not saying that each and every person bombards PCS with emails; what I'm saying is, can we (as a community) organise ourselves in such a way that we can present a convincing enough case to PCS via a SPoC (Single Point of Contact) that they would even discuss what we as a community need to do to make it happen.

Being dispersed around the globe - is it possible? Will it work? ...

Discuss... :rp:

von DarrenF - am 11.01.2016 11:39
Hi Darren,

it's not that PCS were unfriendly or unwilling to listen to their customers. But PCS fears to ride the tiger, means to follow customer advice and being led into the wrong direction that way. Maybe, there has been a bad experience back in the old days. They seek to stay independent and make decisions for the good or the worse of their company on their own and want to avoid any interference from outside. Definitely, there is a plan to make an English language LST but it has to fit into their planning of personell and budgets. The main problem is the availability of employees with a good knowledge of both French and English and since the LSTs not only are text but software too, somebody has to translate the examples as well. Personally, I'd / we'd buy the LSTs for the next couple of years, independently of whether it's profitable to us or not.

von GuenterP - am 11.01.2016 12:04
Hi Guenter,

Yes, I get that and I hope I didn't infer that they were being unfriendly, but sometimes, unintended or otherwise, it DOES feel as though PCS are unwilling to listen to their customers which many people see indicated by their silence and seemingly lack of visibility, voice, openness or whatever it might be; and people will come to their own conclusions.

I get the feeling that because of the way in which PCS are approached by the users of there software, for them it must be like riding 100's of tigers as opposed to riding a single (unified) tiger, hence my post?! :)

von DarrenF - am 11.01.2016 12:27
Surely from A PCS perspective this would have to be based on a 'cost benefit' analysis.

How many French language users are there ?
What percentage of these actually subscribe to the LST ?
Does this cover the production costs or are the remainder of the French language users subsidizing the production ?

Only PCS have the answers to these questions but if the same principle were to be applied to the much smaller English language community would the costs involved in translating both the LST content and the software provided ever be covered.

von DerekT - am 11.01.2016 14:07
Hi all,

I have been wondering for a decade and a half now, and I just can't understand, why on earth PCSoft will not publish the LST in English. After all, English is the lingua franca of programming, not French. Unless of course:

WX is a French product line, and the French are known to be very patriotic, even up to a fanatic point, and also imperialistic and even bumptious. They still want to believe that French really is the lingua franca, not English. I think they are participating in the international imperialistic pissing contest by not accepting the fact, that French has lost its position to English as the globally most useable language.

Also I think that they might want to give their French customers an advantage over us "foreign" customers in the form of the French-only LST.

I hope this was a politically correct opinion:rp:

Best regards
Ola

von Ola - am 11.01.2016 14:58
Hi All,

OK, yesterday as a test, I spent about an hour translating page 10 of the "921 features" sales brochure for version 21. For the record, I have never worked with any translations before and do not know any other foreign languages including French. The time spent including a couple different test methods and finding a translation service.

I did not change the images/photos and find that if I understand the text, I was able to make sense of the images. Looks impressive and easily understandable. Now that I've got my 1st page done and know how to do it, I estimate that it would take me about 10-15 minutes per page to do the rest, while the process will get faster. Here are the results of my experiment. http://www.stanlyn.com/public/page010e.pdf or http://stanlyn.com/public/page010e.pdf

A version like this would be far better that nothing...

Thanks,
Stanley

von StanleyBarnett - am 11.01.2016 19:03
Hi Stanley

"Looks impressive..."

Yes it does, but don't get too exited about the Wx "novelties". Some of them may be plain vaporware and never come through, some may be just a scratch on the surface of the feature and will become fully baked only after a couple of new versions, if ever. Some are repeated over and over. They just want to display a full number of 900 + version number features:-)

But this does not take away the fact, that the feature set of Wx products is already amazing, and getting better!

Best regards
Ola

von Ola - am 11.01.2016 20:11
Hello Stanley,

Nice job BUT this is copy right material that you are changing. It is alright for you to do so BUT you can NOT put it here for display. You could share it discreetly with your friends.

I have done this before and posted it for everyone and got a email from PC soft.

DW

von DW - am 11.01.2016 21:22
Hi Ola,

Vaporware... Well that's interesting... So you are saying that piece of advertising is currently non-existent and is really mis-representing the WX product line for version 21?

If so, what can we believe? It is a major no-no to assign a feature to a product version number and not deliver... Where is "truth in advertising" here????

Is the translation close enough as I do not read or speak French? It seems very useful to me with a tiny bit of imagination.

Yes, they need to get over their silly 9xx numbering of features, which is more like bullets.

Despite all the shortcomings I read about, it is good that I still see the community praising its abilities...

Thanks,
Stanley

von StanleyBarnett - am 12.01.2016 03:29
Hi DW,

Thanks for the heads up... I've taken it down as I did/do not intend to break any copyright laws.

As I said, this was a single 1 page test to see if the results would be usable and what kind of time would be required to create it without translating the images. I found that by translating only the text, it was very beneficial to me or anyone that doesn't speak or read French.

Stanley

Edit... After posting the above, I just searched the entire translation and never found the word "copyright" or the string "copyr", so IS it really copyrighted?

von StanleyBarnett - am 12.01.2016 22:45
Unlike the text, I have always found the pictures to be in English... I can understand them MUCH better than the text. :D

von Art Bonds - am 13.01.2016 01:44
Hi Stanley

"Despite all the shortcomings I read about, it is good that I still see the community praising its abilities... "

Yes. In spite of its 921 (give or take a few) bugs and deficiencies I have no doubt that Wx has become overwhelmingly the best development toolset that I can afford for my needs (data based business applications) since Clarion Professional Developer ("CPD", the original DOS Clarion) was discontinued. And I doubt that I would get anything better even if I paid the corporate level charges for some "more respected" development environments. Definitely not anything easier! Especially I like the very Clarion- and English-like WLanguage, which has a very clear and simple syntax and is easy write, read and understand.

I also tried to use Clarion for Windows versions 1.0 and 1.5, but they were useless crap, especially for my multi-lingual needs -- luckily I then found Windev!

With Windev I get the things done, pretty fast, maybe even 10 times faster (than with assembler:-)), and almost as fast as I used to with Clarion Professional Developer...:-)

But yes, I would like to see the English Wx LST, and I would also like to see books about Wx, written by more experienced programmers. Back in history I purchased all the Clarion books that were available, and they helped me enourmously.

best regards
Ola

P.S. I am not a trained programmer but still I have been able to develop 2 full ERP systems, a very good one in DOS with CPD and then an even better one in Windows with WD, mainly for my own use. I have even sold some copies. All this alongside my main profession, which is running a small publishing company. I just wonder, what a real programmer could do with Wx...:rp:

von Ola - am 13.01.2016 12:53
Well, I've spent the last two years learning French, but still the LST Price is a bit steep. I could live with the "goodies" that come with it :-)

von DerekM - am 22.01.2016 06:56
Hi Derek,

>> LST Price is a bit steep

Like how much does it cost? I've heard a lot of people saying that but I've never heard any numbers.

BTW, I have purchased and awaiting shipment...

Thanks,
Stanley

von StanleyBarnett - am 22.01.2016 07:27
For 175 euros you get 4 editions, about one every 3 months.

For me the LST's are very usefull. I did have some French lessons at school, long time ago, so they finally pay of. I can understand most of the French text.
I also use code snippets or examples every now and then, which would cost me hours to build by myself. That makes it worth the money by itself. The code is also in French, but most of the time you get the idea and when necessary you can translate the code.

Like for example the calendar window, which is now an integrated part of a date-edit control. But not until V18 or so.
The thing can scroll months, years. Show today and has colored workdays. I still use it with all the French code behind and added an extra column with weeknumbers, which is missing in the integrated one.

Besides that I can open a pen, T-shirt (never my size...) and sunglasses store. Goodies are fun but a complete waste of material in terms of environment.

von Arie - am 22.01.2016 09:21
Hello Arie,

you keep talking about french code... So it seems that you are not aware of the "translate code" option of the code menu. :-)

Best regards

von Fabrice Harari - am 22.01.2016 12:43
Hi Arie

"T-shirt (never my size...)"

Same here. I wonder whether they have any grown-up sizes available, like 4XL:-)

Ola

von Ola - am 22.01.2016 13:04
Hi Fabrice,

yes I am aware of the translation option, very handy indeed. :spos:

von Arie - am 22.01.2016 13:29
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