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Chris du Toit, Yogi Yang, Allard, Paul Murray, Jose Antonio Garrido, Steven Sitas, Fabrice Harari, GuenterP, Charles U. Schneiter

[offtopic] What are you doing with WD?

Startbeitrag von Chris du Toit am 13.10.2013 14:18

Hi -

I really like WD...I think it is an amazing environment. It actually makes me want to code in it. I'm lukewarm on WB and WM for various reasons.

Although WD is an awesome product, there seems to be very little room for Windows application development generally. I know that is a broad statement, but there is no denying that the world is moving to Web and Mobile. And it is a shame because WD is so much fun! So this got me thinking: What are you guys doing in WD?

Are you working on billable projects? Do you find it easy to get contracts? Or do you have your own software product you sell? Do you make a living out of WD?

I'd love any and all stories (with as much as you feel comfortable sharing of course).



Hi Chris,

basically, we can make / sell most WD-applications only for Windows PCs, that's right. However, there's a desktop PC market where our applications are mainly aimed at. Firstly, you have to divide the desktop market into two parts: one for use in business situations and the other one for personal use at home / at school. There has been an overall decrease in desktop sales of about 25%, that's right. But it is wrong to conclude that business use of desktop PCs is going down because businesses are going mobile / going web. In fact, Dell, which nearly exclusively sells to businesses had a decrease of -0.1%, near to nothing. So, Dell's selling like before, the others suffer? Right. People out there, they aren't dumb, they analyzed their use of their current PCs / laptops and found out that they just need them for surfing, e-mailing, using social networks and writing a letter every now and then. Then they looked at these mobile devices like smartphones and tablets/phablets and found out that they could do exactly the same by use of such a device. Even better, they could put them into their pockets, having them available all day long instead of evening and weekends. So, their next buying decision was to buy a mobile device. Actually, this is nice but doesn't affect us - as suppliers of business applications - at all.

Imho, the market for business applications hasn't changed a lot. Sure, it did not become much bigger, but there's the old demand.

As usual, the constant hypes about it-gadgets like new protocols, new methods, new younamethems stay as a background noise of our world. Of course, businesses think about mobile applications, think about BYOD, people are becoming used to mobile devices and ask for similar behaviour / user interfaces but there's no exodus, no one wants to have their full ERP system on a smartphone. These are new worlds, will have some impact, but not tomorrow.

von GuenterP - am 14.10.2013 08:51
Hi Chris,

Guenter ++

I couldn't state it any better. This whole iPhone iEverything Mobile Business is - for our field of activity of developing applications for business use (target audience mainly small to medium sized enterprises) - not that much of relevance imho. Where I can see a possibility to apply mobile devices, is as a side line feature at most. Say, in a POS app where the user can walk through his stock and check on data while being able to see it at the same time (though I dont see much, he/she couldn't do from the workstation just as well...) .

As a sideline (not wanting to stray too far off). The publisher of the IDE I used before WD, (Alpha Software, Alpha Five) made an imho gigantic strategical error by abandoning the desktop side of his product almost altogether (firstly by trying to force his customer base to embrace this very mobile hype, second by not keeping the desktop side of the product up to date (e.g. documentation is lagging 2 releases behind to the point of uselessness, the product became more and more unstable, etc..) and lastly by employing a licensing scheme, small developers never could justify). The Result? A large part of his former customer base broke away. And all this, before a new customer base was established in sufficient numbers - and why? Because all these folks thought exactly along the same lines as Guenter is pointing out. It's another market altogether: You mostly either develop for businesses or for the end-user market.

And for B2B, WD really does fit the bill. I haven't found a problem I couldn't solve yet (working roughly a year with the product, so no expert but still climbing the learning curve ;-) . So I recommend you to take the plung and dive right in, if you plan on making apps for B2B.

Just my 2 cts..

von Charles U. Schneiter - am 15.10.2013 07:01
with an other developer we are making an administation app in Webdev. I am also developping an administration app in windev.

There seems to be a demand on online services indeed with business users as well, At least in Holland. It's all the big companies talk about "take it to the cloud" And their message is comming accross . There are a number of softeware companies that indeed switch to online.
Normal pricing of their off line pricing 1500 euro + 20 % yearly fee versus 30 euro per month for their online software. If you price your software like this then indeed you want webusers and not off line users.

There are some reasons why people want to take their admin software to the cloud. The accountant can login an mutate. They can work anywhere etc

When making an online software the big companies can put the smaller ones out of business. Indeed with tools like windev you can make just as good a software as the big companies. But when it comes to hosting online software you have to do a whole lot more. Costs of vps is down but you have to make a portal where users can register and pay online etc. A lot of work for only a monthly fee. Ans people tend to trust the big companies more. And how powerfull can a webdev site be ?? Powerfull enough to host a view thousant users at a time??

But I think if the price is right and te software is good. People will still buy offline software. But I think that we have to really consider webdev. At least play with it so you know what it is about. For I think the futer is all about cloud apps.



von Allard - am 15.10.2013 13:29
Hi everybody

this is my take on the question...

It is NOT a question of WinDev OR Mobile, or of WinDev OR WebDev... The new paradigm is WinDev AND WEbDev AND Mobile...

Each environment has its own advantages and problems and should be used in different situation.

WinDev is perfect to produce heavy duty applications, things that need to stay alive even when web connection drops, need to allow for fast input (and a lot of it)...

WebDev is perfect for distributed work but is susecptible to losing connection, to slow input (page refreshing yet) and to a lot of potential problem with sessions closing at inoportune moment...

Mobile is perfect for well... mobile work, consuming data coming from windev and webdev systems, and even inputing a LITTLE data, but certainly not practical to enter tons of data...

Future is in my experience already here today... More and more, we are building systems using all 3 of the tools, with replication (partial or total) and sharing of information, using each tool where it is the most efficient.

Best regards

von Fabrice Harari - am 15.10.2013 21:45
My take on this is that WinDev and all its variants are worth using, and with a bit of salt one can easily build robust solutions using them. Like for example build web serveices in WD and consume them from WM apps, etc.

There is a very big market for Desktop apps as well as for online apps.

There is a very big market for mobile apps (utilities). For me building serious heavy duty mobile is a not go!

So if you want to build serious apps use WinDev. I have also observed WD apps (for windows) run smoothly on Linux! Yes, you read it right. They run very smoothly on Linux and Mac OS X through WINE! So your app becomes plat form independent (sort of ;) )

For web apps we use CodeCharge Studio which is superb RAD tool instead of WB, we also use Yii framework at times if the customer demands it.

We have been contemplating for quite some time, whether to buy WB and play with it or not. But we decided not to go with it. Why? Because we feel that web server that come with WB is not that stable, resource hungly and it will not be able to server 1000s of users simultaneously on a server with low hardware resources. Another thing is that if you develop apps with WB then there is an extra cost of buying the server which is charged on per users basis (I think). So ultimately it increases your cost and makes your web apps costlier for your clients!

Against this building pure PHP apps is a breeze esp with CCS and there are very, very low overheads compared to AWP! I cannot say how easy it is with WB as there is not express or trial version that one can take for spin.

WM is well suited for building and distributing serious mobile apps. I only wish it support for more mobile OSs.

My 2cents!

von Yogi Yang - am 16.10.2013 06:25
As you said WD is an amazing environment on TOP of an amazing OS - Windows.
If we are talking about applications, like ERPs or HRMs etc, the WEB or MOBILE apps are a JOKE.
The WEB and MOBILE OS (like Android or iOS) are too limited .....

What I think will happen, is that really soon we will have 100 GB internet and mobile connections and the cpu power to run Windows (or MAC OS or Linux) on really small devices. REAL OSs on small devices ...

Steven Sitas

von Steven Sitas - am 16.10.2013 08:26
My two cents...

I love PowerBuilder for Windows development because I don't have to think about how to do what I want. The Datawindow makes Windows development a cakewalk. Same for creating web services. I don't have to think about how to get it done. And WinDev Mobile 18 has NO problem accessing the web services that I create in PowerBuilder. I use PowerBuilder for internal housekeeping applications as I don't really have a requirement to create Windows applications for consumption by my clients.

I love WebDev 18 because there is no other product that I can find on the market that is easier to use and WebDev 18 is a big improvement over v17. But I don't use it for database related web applications. Why because the I can still create web applications in PowerBuilder that do the job quickly and efficiently. But there have been no enhancements to this product for a long time and I know I am going to have to get with the program.

I love WinDev Mobile because it works and there is NO other solution that doesn't involve getting neck deep in nasty detailed code. WinDev Mobile 18 is a really good product and easy to use.

All that being said, I have to say that the features that WinDev 18 has look fabulous (e.g. the calendar control) and if I was going to create a Windows application I would definately give it a shot.


von Paul Murray - am 16.10.2013 20:59
Appreciate the opinions here. It does look like it also varies by geographical region. Like for Allard in Holland, here in the US its all about being cloud enabled. Even traditionally solid "windows" desktop applications like a lawyer client management system is now "web" (they took a while to get there because of concerns of client confidentiality). But now you can forgot about producing any business software like CRM, Software for realtors, lawyers, etc that is not web enabled...IMHO.

I wish someone would produce a world-class site on WB. Unfortunately (not to be critical here), all the WB sites out there look like 1998 Frontpage sites. Even the list of sample sites on the PCSoft website are very weak (those that still run). I think WB is amazing for bringing the WD rad paradigm to the web...nothing comes close to it...but the reality is that look and feel of websites today is paramount.

Happy WB/WM/WDing everybody!

von Chris du Toit - am 17.10.2013 15:35

To those who think that web is the way to go, I disagree.

With Native apps (Windows, Android, Ios, Etc) you can access the database on the same device, on local network, or on cloud. So is much more versatile.

Why are millions of mobiles apps being developed each year, and not make them WEB?

For windows is the same, but the market is for bussiness to bussiness instead of a "market store".

(sorry with my english, but i'm in a hurry)

von Jose Antonio Garrido - am 17.10.2013 16:26
I think it is really possible to make a great site with webdev.The thing is webdev tends to take care of everything. Design and coding. And that is cool for as a small company you can make great site all you have to know is webdev. But if you compare it with other site keep in mind that moast of the stunning sites have been developed by a team of developers. Coders and designers.

Webdev sites donnot need to look like frontpage sites. But as we are moastly coders we donnot really get the consept of design. It takes some other skills to get it right.



von Allard - am 17.10.2013 17:50
Steven Sitas
The WEB and MOBILE OS (like Android or iOS) are too limited .....

I have heard gossip that Intel is investing in a big way to build Android version that will run on all Intel based hardware irrespective of the device (be it mobile, desktop PC, or whatever). If this happens then WinDev Mobile would be the way to go for all!?!?!?!?! :xcool:

von Yogi Yang - am 19.10.2013 03:47
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