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vor 8 Jahren, 11 Monaten
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Beteiligte Autoren:
Ola, Ruben Sanchez Peña, Al, M. Beaven, T Petersen, Arie, Jimbo

Programming charter settings - 1000 times slower

Startbeitrag von Ola am 26.07.2009 15:19

The header indicates my current development speed with WD14 compared to my old Clarion tools.

Currently I am wasting time and getting nothing done plus frustrated trying to find where to turn off the "programming charter" - the automatic fukcer up of my otherwise decent code.

In WD11 it was in Project -> Project Description -> "Charter" tab. In WD14 the help says it is in the "Advanced" tab, but it is not in my copy!



P.S. I have edited the title to better reflect the problem.


Re: 1000 times slower

Hello Ola,

I think what you look for is in the "Options" tab (its last item - Programming Charter), just above the "Advanced" tab....

Kind regards,

von T Petersen - am 26.07.2009 15:45

Re: 1000 times slower

Thanks Tomas, but...

WD14 -> Project -> Project Description -> "Options" tab does not have the Programming Charter setting either. At least not in my copy of WD14 ver. 01A140029v.

I have gone through all the menus, but can't find it.


von Ola - am 26.07.2009 16:21

Re: 1000 times slower

Hi Ola, take a second look!
Project -> Project Description -> Options-Tab in the lower part, the frame 'Programming Charter' is what you're looking for.
Regards, Guenter

von Jimbo - am 26.07.2009 16:29

Re: 1000 times slower

Hi Guenter,

Is this weird or what?

In the options tab I have the following settings in three "boxes", and nothing more:

---------BOX 1--------------------------------
- propose to update the components...
- propose to save the project...
- ask for the location...
---------BOX 2---------------------
- synchronizing the windows...
---------BOX 3---------------------
- enable the strict mode...

That's it. Nothing more. Certainly no "programming charter" setting there.


von Ola - am 26.07.2009 17:48

Re: 1000 times slower

I have noted that my "Large font" Windows display setting sometimes causes display problems, so I re-tried after first disabling the large font setting, but the result was the same, only the fonts were smaller.


von Ola - am 26.07.2009 18:08

Re: 1000 times slower

Hello Ola

It's missing in my version 14 as well.

The help actually refers to it being in two separate places, the Advanced Tab and the Options Tab.

It may have something to do with the SCM, which I do not use.
On a related issue, I was missing the developer groupware options on my version but another computer in our system had them on their menus. Tech support said that I should be using SCM and they are only maintaining Developer Groupware for compatibility with older versions. My groupware options re-appeared when the other computer switched to shared mode in the groupware. Maybe something similar is affecting your seeing the charter options.

The charter file is a .cdp file so maybe you could just remove it.


von Al - am 26.07.2009 19:23

Re: 1000 times slower

FYI, I DO have an option for the programming charter (WD14-29v)
And I'm not using SCM


von Arie - am 26.07.2009 19:32

Re: 1000 times slower

Hi Ola. I can see "programming charter" in the Project Options tab.

I am a ExClarioner, and my experience with Windev is other. I only can you say if you want be productive with Windev, then you MUST "Desclarionize". No other languages work like Clarion mode. If you think like Clarioner then you will lost your time.

Ruben Sanchez Peña

von Ruben Sanchez Peña - am 26.07.2009 19:37

Re: 1000 times slower

Hello Ola

It has to be some sort of rights issue as a developer.
I have checked our other workstation running V14 and it has the charter option in the Options section of the project description and also as a menu choice in the project menu, but I am missing both charter options on my version 14. If you have V14 on multiple workstations then the charter options may appear on one of them.

I suggest you contact PCSoft tech support for an answer.


von Al - am 26.07.2009 19:55

Re: 1000 times slower

Thanks Al, Arie, Ruben...

OK, this is obviously some kind of a bug.

I'll send PCS an email with a link to this message chain.

I am working alone and have set no restrictions on the use of WD.
I have WD14 only on one computer, a Fujitsu-Siemens M3438G laptop with a 17" display, running XP home.


von Ola - am 26.07.2009 21:15

Re: 1000 times slower

Hi Ruben

This is not a question of working/thinking mode but rather of quality and bugs and getting or not getting something done while fighting with the bugs. Clarion CPD totally lacks this "feature". No "declarionizing" helps here.

I have already grown into WD, as I have been using it (more or less) since version 5.5, but I have not grown into its bugs.

And I just can't help getting amused about WD's "10 times faster" slogan after havin used for over 20 years the practically problem-free Clarion CPD. When fighting with bugs, the development speed is zero.

In order to be productive with any development tool, I need a good and reliable two-way RAD, and this WD has not been able to give.

I think that maintainability is at least as important as the ease of creation, and here WD has lacked. I finally started to see some light in this respect in WD's RAD with the current version's pattern concept, but it still has a lot to improve, and I have a lot to learn before becoming productive with it. But I can't even test my patterns because of these silly problems.

And these odd WD problems here and there just drive me crazy after using the practically problem-free CPD for over 20 years!

I think that PCS pays too much attention to developing fancy bells and whistles, and too little to quality.


Ruben wrote: "I am a ExClarioner, and my experience with Windev is other. I only can you say if you want be productive with Windev, then you MUST "Desclarionize". No other languages work like Clarion mode. If you think like Clarioner then you will lost your time."

von Ola - am 26.07.2009 21:54

Re: 1000 times slower

Hi Ola,

A truly honest question- if Clarion was !"20 years practically problem free", then why are you using Windev (or trying anyway)??



von M. Beaven - am 27.07.2009 03:29

Re: 1000 times slower

Hi Marc,

Thanks for asking a good question:-)
Here's the honest answer:

My trusty Clarion CPD 2.1 produces DOS programs. CPD cranks out 100-procent good network (LAN) code. So far they have been very good and problem-free. In principle it doesn't matter, whether database programs run in DOS or Windows. I think that ease of use, quality and reliability are more important factors. I have enhanced my DOS programs with some windows and internet bells and whistles made with WD, such as fetching currency exhange rates, FTP movers, automatic bitmap manipulators for producing pictures for intenet site, some emailing apps etc.

However, Microsoft has been (obviously fully intentionally) making the life of DOS users more difficult in each and every new Windows version: Special Windows settings are required to run even a simple database application. Settings are changing in each version. The place where settings are changed get moved around. New peripheral connection standards are brought, old are removed (parallel, series). For instance the simple task of printing is getting more and more difficult, almost impossible in new PC machines with the latest windows. Another simple task of copying and pasting has been changed made more difficult in almost every Windows version.

The memory available to DOS programs has been reduces: in the latest PC machine specifications part of the high DOS (display) memory (some 60 kilos) has been "stolen" for Windows's use (I can see no other reason for this other than intentional shooting down of DOS programs). This effectively limits the number of windows that can be consecutively opened.

In future, in order to run DOS programs, I would need to maintain a PC museum in order to have sufficient supply of computers:-). Currently I am running my DOS programs in few years old Win2K machines, and they work very well. Some users run it in a few years old XP's. Vista I haven't even tried any more.

So, I have been forced to search for the "best buy" windows RAD replacement for CPD. WD is the most promising, but so far it has only been promising. Maybe with the new pattern RAD the promises will get fullfilled?

But I have no real hurry yet, I can certainly run my DOS systems succesfully until I get officially retired, but at the same time I am preparing for the final end of DOS era by developing the Windows version of my DOS system. The majority is done. The analysis is (mostly) there, the import procedures have been tested, I have even made a rather large bilingual (Finnish+English) application for test use, but I have not wanted to finalize and deploy it, because the maintainability, ease of use, quality and features are lesser than in my CPD programs. It looks nicer, though:-). I will redo the app using the new RAD template concept if I can find my way through it and if WD's bugs allow me to do it.

Best regards

von Ola - am 27.07.2009 08:30

Re: 1000 times slower

Hi Ola.

Yes, Clarion CPD 2.1 was a wonderful product. But i think you can compare it with WD. I can't sell a MSDOS program today here in Spain. How access from CPD to SQL Servers? What about the latest Clarion versions? Are they bug free?

WD isn't perfect, and the english support is very uggly, but the product is years ahead form Clarion IDE. Included the last C7.

And you have "RAD two ways" since WD11... I am using it in my applications.

Rubén Sánchez Peña

von Ruben Sanchez Peña - am 27.07.2009 09:51

Re: 1000 times slower


Are we getting a bit OT here?:-)

Selling software is one thing and using them is another. I produce and sell mainly paperware and use the best buy software for doing it, and I don't want to compromise too much in my software.

I fullheartidly admit that it is probably at least 1000 times easier to sell WD apps than CPD apps, in any country. I have only sold a few copies of my CPD software in early 90's -- most of them are still being used. However, I do not recommend CPD apps for SQL databases:-)

I think that CPD is very comparable to WD's RAD (at least until v.11, can't tell yet about 14): only that CPD is much better. Also in quality, reliability and LAN support CPD beats WD hands down. I tested Clarion for Windows until version 1.5 when I dropped it as crap: too much problems, although some of them were certainly caused by early Windows versions.

I understood from discussions on this forum that the new pattern RAD in versions 11 and 12 had some serious limitations, so I did not want to waste my time with it, and actually skipped version 12 because of this.

But I fully agree that in most respects WD is light years ahead of anything else (although i have not tested everything:-). And I really like it most of the time I am using it, although sometimes I would really like to destroy most of its automatic features.

Now I am spending some time on the new pattern RAD, and I really hope it won't be wasted. I have already run into several problems and questions with it; see my message titled "WD14 RAD pattern/template questions",

...and I am running into more in every session with it. I am writing them down as I go, and will ask for help with them later. Right now I am stuck with the "programming charter", which really is a showstopper.

I would gladly exchange some of the WD's fancy bells and whistles (such as "programming charter", transparent text...) to quality.


P.S. I think that Clarion wasted an enormous opportunity by not making just a simple windows version of the plain simple CPD, with only some minor improvements...

P.S.2. With all this I am not suggesting that your or anybody else's WD programs would be worse than my CPD programs -- I am sure that there are no limits for good professional programmers using WD. I am only saying that so far I have been able to produce better programs with CPD's RAD than with WD's RAD, and much faster.

von Ola - am 27.07.2009 16:39

Re: 1000 times slower

Hi Ola. I whise you solucionate your issues.

Rubén Sánchez Peña

von Ruben Sanchez Peña - am 28.07.2009 16:56

Re: 1000 times slower

OK, I got an answer from PCS.

It's not a bug, but the setting is behind another setting, which must be enabled first, before the "programming charter" settings become visible.

The first setting is in
Tools -> Options -> Options of the environment
and there the second option from top down: "Advanced project options (Programming charter,...)"

Only after that setting has been turned on, the proper settings for the programming charter will be visible and available in
Project -> Project desription -> Options tab, last frame.

I wasted a lot of time because of this. It would have helped, if this double setting had been explained in the help under "Programming charter"...

On this feature the help is behind the actual development; it advices to go to the "Advanced" tab of the project description ("Project .. Project Description"). This is not true in either WD11 or WD14. Maybe in WD12, but I can't tell, as I skipped over it.

Thanks to all for participating in the search for the solution.


von Ola - am 30.07.2009 13:57
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