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WinDev Forum
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Erster Beitrag:
vor 8 Jahren
Letzter Beitrag:
vor 8 Jahren
Beteiligte Autoren:
Jimbo, Ivar Andreassen.pcs.crosspost, Glenn Rathke, DerekT, Jeff Graham, AJC, Goof.pcs.crosspost, Brother Bill.pcs.crosspost, Al

Why should I (as a devloper) switch over from e.g. Visual Studio 2008 and traditional Windows dev, and start using WinDev / WebDev

Startbeitrag von Ivar Andreassen.pcs.crosspost am 28.10.2009 08:46

I put the question in the heading.. I have read the testimonials, but they are stricktly targeted the guys deciding if they should purchase or not.. Not so much why WinDev etc. is a great platform for developers.

I have seen all the videos, and read the available documenatation. It all looks nice. Sure you can drag-n-drop a lot, and create nice looking apps. But what happens the day you need to move beyond the built in functionality in the GUI? HOw hard is it to customize your code, and still have a great and flexible soultuion?

To developers of PC Soft platforms, please give me good real life examples of why I should focus on PC Soft products, instead of traditional Microsoft development.

Thanks!!

Message forwarded from pcsoft.us.windev

Antworten:

Re: Why should I (as a devloper) switch over from e.g. Visual Studio

Ivar Andreassen a écrit :
> I put the question in the heading.. I have read the testimonials, but they are stricktly targeted the guys deciding if they should purchase or not.. Not so much why WinDev etc. is a great platform for developers.
>
> I have seen all the videos, and read the available documenatation. It all looks nice. Sure you can drag-n-drop a lot, and create nice looking apps. But what happens the day you need to move beyond the built in functionality in the GUI? HOw hard is it to customize your code, and still have a great and flexible soultuion?
>
> To developers of PC Soft platforms, please give me good real life examples of why I should focus on PC Soft products, instead of traditional Microsoft development.
>
> Thanks!!
>
Hi

We are using windev since 10 years and a lot of work was done.
If a function is not available, there is many way to add it to windev.
There is a support for ActiveX, Api/DLL call, .Net assembly integration,
Message forwarded from pcsoft.us.windev

von Goof.pcs.crosspost - am 28.10.2009 09:03

Re: Why should I (as a devloper) switch over from e.g. Visual Studio

Visual Studio provides MANY ways to accomplish a task. This is done for legacy purposes so as to not break code. For example, there is ADO.net, LINQ. You have typed binding, typeless binding, etc. WinDev tends to have fewer ways to do things, so that once you learn the basics, you are done. WinDev is designed for the Junior Programmer, but can be used by Master programmers.

Downside of WinDev. You are limited to the user interface controls provided by PCSoft. You cannot add-in third-party .NET controls, such as Farpoint Spread.
In the US, WinDev is a small pond. There are probably 10,000 .NET developers for each WinDev developer, so if you are looking to be hired as a developer, you have better opportunity with .NET
If someone asks you what you program in, and you say WinDev, they won't know what that is and stare at you like you are from another planet.

Upside of WinDev.
1. It is a fully integrated system, where the database schema (analysis) is known to the project. This makes it easier to build database applications.
2. HyperFile commands allow low level access to all modern databases.
3. W language is easy to use.
4. Serializing and deserializing is trivial compared to .NET.
5. You may create procedures in W language at run time, but not yet using Object-oriented techniques.
6. A Report Generator is included.
7. You can write non-visual classes in .NET and access them in WinDev and WebDev, but not in WebDev Dynamic PHP web sites.
8. WinDev support "panels" so that it is easy to build your own wizards.
9. Another WinDev developer can pick up your project without the necessity of going thru the learning curve for the 5 external components that the project uses.
A WinDev developer will need to learn to use the external classes, but these tend to be smaller.



Message forwarded from pcsoft.us.windev

von Brother Bill.pcs.crosspost - am 29.10.2009 13:45

Re: Why should I (as a devloper) switch over from e.g. Visual Studio

Thank you for your answers!

I suspected that the upside also had several down sides. Most of the planned applications will be the typical client-server database driven application. I fear that I end up with to many limitations, and end up with a system that can do most things, but not all things.

I have downloaded the Express edition, but it has a low limit for number of controls, and I feel I do not get to test it proparly.

I might end up buying a license, but please; if you have more examples of large scale projects, running web sites created in WebDev etc. please tell me more.

Message forwarded from pcsoft.us.windev

von Ivar Andreassen.pcs.crosspost - am 29.10.2009 15:55

Re: Why should I (as a devloper) switch over from e.g. Visual Studio


Hi, one of the big downsides of Visual Studio is the price to make and time to market of the finished product. Plus a technical one: VB windows with many controls on them are unbearably slow on screen.

While the common employed programmer is only interested in flexibility and slightly nonsensical question 'does it follow the latest trends?', those guys who are paying for the making of a software project have very different views! They want to know how much it would cost them to see it in production and how long it would take to be made. There is a tight correlation between cost + time, of course.

Here, a WinDev project - in the hands of a seasoned professional - will be the clear winner of the race. We experienced to be 3 to 5 times faster using Windev than using VB (again, a seasoned VB programmer) on the SAME project!

So let's have the comparison explicitly: Your customer presents the specs (hopefully: a complete systems analysis) and the VB software company offers 12 months work for doing it feature complete. But: If you're using WinDev for the same project it will be about 4 months only! But you will offer 8 months value. First, you will get the order, because your price is only 66% of that of your competition and second, you will earn about the double income / month of your competitor! That's quite a difference!

Kind regards,
Guenter





von Jimbo - am 29.10.2009 16:52
As JImbo san allready said... time to market and ROI. matters...

If we only got some nasty bugs fixed I am willing to agree that WX is an excellent dev. environment containing some brilliant, but half baked ideas... but unfortunately WX, especially WD ,contains some (time consuming) limitations (NET, The W-Language), show stoppers, and too many bugs..

ATM I spend some time in using VS 2010 beta + Infragistics... (development is in C#) to see how rapid WX development really is ... will see.

ajc




von AJC - am 29.10.2009 17:38
Hello AJC

Talk about damming a product with faint praise. Vague accusations like yours convey no real information to assist the original poster to make a decision.

A few people talk about bugs in WIndev but very few are specific about what they are exactly. The recent detailed discussion on the forum about SCM has been very useful, so lets get a list of your problems to work through.

Can you nominate the nasty bugs, the show stoppers, the time consuming limitations that concern you so we can all avoid them and perhaps help you work around them.

Your comment:
"... especially WD ,contains some (time consuming) limitations (NET, The W-Language)"

If you are nominating the entire W-Language as a "time consuming limitation", that is just ridiculous.


Regards
Al

von Al - am 29.10.2009 20:47
Hi AJC,

If there are so many limitations, why have you not posted any problems on the
WinDev Forum >> WX Products: Reports of malfunctions & bugs?
http://forum.mysnip.de/list.php?27593

Jeff

von Jeff Graham - am 30.10.2009 14:32
Hi Al,

I would like to see the list he is talking about. I use WinDev/WebDev at least 8hrs each day (every day) and with a rare exception (probably of my own making) I am not burdened down by bugs, or time consuming issues.

von Glenn Rathke - am 30.10.2009 14:33
Quote
Jeff Graham
Hi AJC,

If there are so many limitations, why have you not posted any problems on the
WinDev Forum >> WX Products: Reports of malfunctions & bugs?
http://forum.mysnip.de/list.php?27593

Jeff


Hi Jeff,

AJC = BLS. And BLS, just as a reminder, recently has had a real bad time with SCM. Maybe he still has, I'm not up to date in that matter. BLS has the same problem as I have: frequently, our postings were not copied over to the pcs forum. Using just another 'nom de guerre' in the header of a posting makes it easier, it's a kind of camouflage if you want. Flying below the pcs radar.

Regards, Guenter

von Jimbo - am 31.10.2009 04:36
Guenter
You are in part correct but frustration is not a valid reason to condemn Wx family of products out of hand.
Point out some issues you may have had certainly but 'show stoppers, and too many bugs' - I think not especially when the original question was from a potential new user making a genuine enquiry.

Many here have offered AJC (a.k.a BLS, Bjorn) assistance, or at least sympathy, in his issues with SCM and potential solutions to his more more general matters.
Those of us that use SCM would agree that it is subject to some strange problems from time to time and, although improving, is not quite the 'full shilling' at the moment.

Unfortunately from time to time we get this type of thread - those of us that have been here awhile will recall previous instances (the initials PP may jog a few memories).
I really try not to get involved with them as they serve very little purpose other than to create the wrong impression to the casual readers and/or potential Windevers that visit this site - especially if prolonged.
But sometimes.........................................

Regards

DerekT

von DerekT - am 31.10.2009 09:35
Quote
DerekT
Guenter
You are in part correct but frustration is not a valid reason to condemn Wx family of products out of hand.
Point out some issues you may have had certainly but 'show stoppers, and too many bugs' - I think not especially when the original question was from a potential new user making a genuine enquiry.

Many here have offered AJC (a.k.a BLS, Bjorn) assistance, or at least sympathy, in his issues with SCM and potential solutions to his more more general matters.
Those of us that use SCM would agree that it is subject to some strange problems from time to time and, although improving, is not quite the 'full shilling' at the moment.

Unfortunately from time to time we get this type of thread - those of us that have been here awhile will recall previous instances (the initials PP may jog a few memories).
I really try not to get involved with them as they serve very little purpose other than to create the wrong impression to the casual readers and/or potential Windevers that visit this site - especially if prolonged.
But sometimes.........................................

Regards

DerekT


Hi Derek,

I'm not frustrated with WinDev, in contrary, I'm very happy with it. It makes me productive and it makes me earn some Euros. Easier and faster than the competition using VB / C# or whatever.

However, WinDev is a big product. Maybe, even too big a product! There are parts of it recommended for use (99% of the core) and parts of it you should use with care only or even stay away.

Just as an example: Once upon a time I tried to use the Help authoring tool included with WinDev. I invested more than one week of work for building a full help system for a medium sized program. Initially, my work went well and I generated and wrote about 200 pages of Help with lots of images and even more of text. Linked the Help to the project and everything seemed to work just fine. Then the big crash came and retrieving the only the text from the Help was quite some problem. Rebuilding the Help did not work, it crashed again. Let's think about cost now. 1 week = 50 hours x 30 Euros each (in house cost) = 1500,- Euros lost. What would you recommend? I did the logical thing: I bought a Help authoring tool for 99,- Euros (big deal!) and re-built the Help system. When will I use the Help authoring tool again? Ask me in 2055 or later. On a Wednesday, please. I'm not going to try again before that.

These are absolutely unnecessary experiences which are doing a lot of damage to a great product! Who is to blame? Ok, 50% it's been myself, because I thought I had to save those lousy 99,- Euros on the first run. Plus, because I believed that those who specialize in developing Help tools and do it for years were on par with pcs who just made an add-on, never focused on that part of the product. And 50% pcs who thought they just had to add a Help tool to their product and everything was fine. Customer is asking: is a Help authoring tool included? Answer: YES! Deal made. That's the problem: how we perceive a customer and how the customer perceives us.

Kind regards,
Guenter



von Jimbo - am 31.10.2009 11:47
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