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Beteiligte Autoren:
Allard, Fabrice Harari, DerekM, steve erts, Peter Holemans, DarrenF, Steven Sitas, belkassem, StefanoG, André Labuschagné, ... und 5 weitere

webdev 21 responsive sites

Startbeitrag von Allard am 23.02.2016 21:40

Hi,

Iam using version 21 to get my main site to be responsive. And have a question on that:

- How can I create a responsive template
( I can start with a blak responsive site or a responsive site with some stuff on it but I cannot create a template. (please help )
If I cannot use templates then working with webdev is a lot more work!!
- Do you have to start with responsive site form the get go or is it possible to change a site to be responsive > As I see it the first is the case.

regards
allard

Antworten:

Hi Allard

the simple answer is: RESPONSIVE is -NOT- ready yet. Stop wasting your time. They'll need an extra month or two to have something working correctly on that point

Best regards

von Fabrice Harari - am 24.02.2016 16:10
Thanks,

Indeed that seems to be the case. Nothing to do then to wait for the englisch version I guess


regards

Allard

von Allard - am 25.02.2016 09:38
Hi Allard,

The responsive design concept works pretty well for basic page designs. I haven't tried it with grids and loopers yet though so I have no idea if these become responsive as well in resizing/replacing behaviour. However, the lack of being able to define repsonsive design page templates makes it near to unusable imho...

It might be a good idea to inform via Tech Support ("I would like to get technical information") if this responsive design at template level is foreseen in the near future. If not I'll be probably using other technology for anything that needs to be in accordance with the responsive design pattern for now.

Cheers,

Peter H.

von Peter Holemans - am 25.02.2016 10:48
I was really looking forward to getting my hands on the new WB21 for this feature alone! I REALLY hope it's not going to be one of those half-baked implementations. It must work for me to even consider purchasing WB21!

Oh, and some useable templates would be good also...

von DarrenF - am 25.02.2016 11:12
Hi all

there is a looooooooooong thread about this subject on the french webdev forum. So if you want the details, google translate it.

The gist of it:
- template in responsive is coming
- nothing works as it should
- it's a complete waste of time to try it now

Best regards

von Fabrice Harari - am 25.02.2016 13:46
LST101 has an example using bootstrap. I don;t have the time to look into it, so I cannot tell you more.
Since 'responsive' is not working in WB21 as advertised, pcsoft might be willing to send you a copy

von Arie - am 25.02.2016 14:08
Hmmm, I see what you mean Fabrice... lot's of frustrated people on the French forum. The most worrying comment for me came from pcs; almost asking people not to expect too much 'cos it's a large complex area :-( I'm officially not holding my breath for Responsive functionality in WB21.

von DarrenF - am 25.02.2016 21:47
Just my 2 cents.

Can one use the MVC approach to build responsive web apps using Bootstrap and HTML5 (views only) in WB?

Regards,

Yogi Yang

von Yogi Yang - am 26.02.2016 05:58
This is the main reason for me to upgrade to WB 21.

At the moment my web site looks and work fantastic on my 17" 1920x1080 resolution.

As soon as users open on a 155 notebook, in Chrome then they have to scroll left or right to see the full page.

In Chrome you cannot zoom out to a custom % so it is that 75% fits the whole page on the screen but it is a little bit to small to work with.

Is this what responsive websites are supposed to overcome and if the responsive website is not working what alternatives are there for me to have a landscape design fit perfectly on my customers 15" monitor?

Thanks in advance



Ericus Steyn

von Ericus - am 26.02.2016 09:10
Hi Ericus,

it was always possible to do this kind of thing in webdev, - BY CODE-

Have a look at my wxshowroom.com main page: the content will adapt automatically to the size of the browser (I did NOT implement it for when you resize the browser, so you'll have to reload the page), but it basically doesn't matter what size the browser is, the page will adapt.

And that was coded in webdev 18.

Best regards

von Fabrice Harari - am 26.02.2016 12:35
Hi Fabrice,

No sorry but this isnot the case. The top of t he page doesnot scale after reload ( tested with Opera). does this matter ?

Yes it does.

- Google lists pages that do scale better higher then pages that do not.
- Modern sites are responsive. There are a lot of sites that are not but as a small software company it is a big deal to have a modern looking site. Not only the bootstrap scaling but also the graffics used etc. is important. That is if you want to generated business making websites.

I visited a potential client, for selling my project manangement software witch is a windev app. They are a traditional company. But for their site they made it responsive. Because everybody does it and they want to snet a message to their clientel. The message : we do things by new standards ( eventhough it is an angeniering company.
( I even changes all the images in my windev app to match the new styling. I was verry happy pcsoft did profide these immages with version 20 !!)

So Yes it matters. If you do not get this think about it again.

I hope pc soft does somthing about this for it becomes more important every day!

regards
allard

von Allard - am 01.03.2016 08:21
Hi Allard

thank you for the lesson but I know all that...

I was NOT saying that the whole page is coded as responsive, I was saying that I coded the middle of the page that way, all by code, in webdev, and that it is possible to do it for a WHOLE page if you know what you are doing. A proof of concept, if you will.

I could do the same for the title, the menu and everything else. I just did not have the time to play with it.

Best regards

von Fabrice Harari - am 01.03.2016 15:32
Windev made a huge error with Webdev by getting involved in the presentation UX side of web pages. I'm not terribly confident they'll ever be able to conquer this. Not to be overly critical of people's work but I don't think I've ever seen a truly good looking website developed purely in Webdev. It's probably a good tool for B2B, Intranet, and the web based business software but I don't think it's a good solution for consumer facing websites, with exception of widgets that might fit within an otherwise non web dev site. I love Windev but the one thing I liked better about my previous development tool (Magic) was their web paradigm which used a tagging mechanism to inject data into pages and allowed for the complete separation of UI and business logic.

Just my 2 cents.

von steve erts - am 02.03.2016 16:32
Hi Steve

that's funny. What you are describing in magic is what we were doing before webdev existed (we= I and a few other crazy frenchies). Develop the web pages in 'something' (dreamviewer for me), add tags in them, then use a windev program called by each button and so on with parameters to replace the tags...

It was working, true, but it was a pain in the ass compared to webdev.

And I have seen some beautiful webdev sites. It happens when there is a graphical artist involved instead of just a coder :-)

Best regards

von Fabrice Harari - am 03.03.2016 10:00
Quote
Fabrice Harari
Hi Steve

that's funny. What you are describing in magic is what we were doing before webdev existed (we= I and a few other crazy frenchies). Develop the web pages in 'something' (dreamviewer for me), add tags in them, then use a windev program called by each button and so on with parameters to replace the tags...

It was working, true, but it was a pain in the ass compared to webdev.

And I have seen some beautiful webdev sites. It happens when there is a graphical artist involved instead of just a coder :-)

Best regards


The problem is that it's very hard to get a graphical artist involved when they can't develop the pages outside of web dev. Plus then you have to get web dev licenses for users who really should not need them.

von steve erts - am 03.03.2016 17:28
Hi,

My thoughts on this where like you but I have changed my view on this.

There are other software rad platforms out tere that makes developing an app fast.

- Mendix
- Out systems
- sales force

The first 2 work with pre build templates and a code generation engine. Code gets generated from visual flow diagramms. They have control over the page via template engines and code gets generated. But they work verry fast.
Then there is sales fors witch is 100% webbased and fast as well. You can programm in it as well.
But there are 2 levels of developers the first doesnot need to code at all the second can.

Then there is php /jquerie/html5 and Visual studio. Theseare all about coding. Flexible but verry slow. Gives full control but takes ages. PHP you can start with opensource this helps speed.

Then there is webdev. I think for snall teams wbdev fits right between the other plaforms. You have control through coding. A cool lanuage that is verry fast in doing pretty mutch anything database related stuff. ( meaning the logic side of things). Leaving the pluming stuff to PC soft.( ajax / html5 etc ).

The way I see it now is that it gives maximal functional programming capabilities without the need to do the difficult plumming. Thus it gives you speed.
Nice comes in handy that it is open to .net so you can do things that need low level programming if need be. Moast of the time this is not needed though.

If you work with webdev and windev as well you have to work the way the tool looks at things so it can help you speed things up.

Take a look at mendix for instance. It gives you less control. But it does what it needs to do and gives enormouse speed. Thus it becomes more and more accepted and used.

Webdev just might be the tool that gives the best of both worlds. Use it as intended and you get speed and programming capabilities.

If webdev developers where working as mendix developers they could take on projects like the mendix developers do. Mendix developers work in teams up to 5 developers and they deliver apps in weeks not months . And They take on big projects with big budgets!!!!

Just my thoughts

regards
Allard

von Allard - am 04.03.2016 08:18
Quote
Fabrice Harari
Hi Steve

that's funny. What you are describing in magic is what we were doing before webdev existed (we= I and a few other crazy frenchies). Develop the web pages in 'something' (dreamviewer for me), add tags in them, then use a windev program called by each button and so on with parameters to replace the tags...

It was working, true, but it was a pain in the ass compared to webdev.

And I have seen some beautiful webdev sites. It happens when there is a graphical artist involved instead of just a coder :-)

Best regards


I agreed with Fabrice.... I have also seen some web apps that looks really nice with or without a graphic designer involved.

For example these web applications are built with WB 20 and I think they look nice and modern too:
https://www.behance.net/gallery/34814783/CRM-web-project
https://www.behance.net/gallery/32789703/Web-workflows-documents
https://www.behance.net/gallery/26463415/CRM-web-project
https://www.behance.net/gallery/32792527/Web-dietist-system
https://www.behance.net/gallery/32789851/Web-order-foood

Regards,

Victoria

von Victoria Caballero - am 10.03.2016 13:54
Does nice and modern equal light grey text on white background? Such pages sure are hard to read.

von Name withheld by request - am 12.03.2016 18:25
Hi Victoria

Very nice - I have to agree that WebDev can produce top web apps and web sites. Nothing wrong with it. And it is a very fast and productive work cycle. And it is very strong on the database business side of things.

Cheers
André

von André Labuschagné - am 13.03.2016 11:18
Hi Fabrice, Allard, steve erts et al

Any update on this? If 'Responsive' is DoA for WebDev 21, then I might need to re-think using WebDev for our customer-facing website and swap to Wix or similar!

von DerekM - am 25.03.2016 22:11
Hi Derek,
We will have to wait for the English version of WebDev 21, to see how good "responsive" is. But I don't think that the product "shines" when developing customer facing websites.
I am not saying you can't develop decent websites with the product, BUT:
1. The product will always be "behind" the newest web technologies.
2. The way we design pages - in WebDEV - is NOT intuitive. There are times that I want to throw my computer, out of the window.

To sum things up, WebDEV is a GREAT tool to design APPLICATIONs for the web but not for customer facing websites.

I have done some research and I think I have found a "mix" of products that can satisfy my customers needs.
A. Use Pingendo to make the STATIC pages of the website (Responsive)
B. Use Microsofts Sway and Microsofts Doc.com to design stories, live newsletters etc and embed them in the static pages, designed with pingendo (Responsive)
C. Use WebDEV for applications (with direct access to customers data). These applications are targeted for large displays (PCs, tablets) - (NOT Responsive).
D. Use WinDEV mobile for mobile applications (Phones, small tablets etc) (using web services to access customers data) - (use anchors for Responsive).

Steven Sitas

von Steven Sitas - am 26.03.2016 11:38
Quote
Victoria Caballero
Quote
Fabrice Harari
Hi Steve

that's funny. What you are describing in magic is what we were doing before webdev existed (we= I and a few other crazy frenchies). Develop the web pages in 'something' (dreamviewer for me), add tags in them, then use a windev program called by each button and so on with parameters to replace the tags...

It was working, true, but it was a pain in the ass compared to webdev.

And I have seen some beautiful webdev sites. It happens when there is a graphical artist involved instead of just a coder :-)

Best regards



I agreed with Fabrice.... I have also seen some web apps that looks really nice with or without a graphic designer involved.

For example these web applications are built with WB 20 and I think they look nice and modern too:
https://www.behance.net/gallery/34814783/CRM-web-project
https://www.behance.net/gallery/32789703/Web-workflows-documents
https://www.behance.net/gallery/26463415/CRM-web-project
https://www.behance.net/gallery/32792527/Web-dietist-system
https://www.behance.net/gallery/32789851/Web-order-foood

Regards,

Victoria


These are nice and as I said it's a fine tool for B2B and Business apps. Where it has less applicability for my specific needs is with the ability to integrate within the look and feel of my clients consumer facing web sites.

von steve erts - am 26.03.2016 22:10
Hi guys

Yes, I think the consensus is that WebDev is great for everything except customer facing websites.

My thinking at the moment is - hope that WD21 improves things a bit - but - if it will always be "behind" the latest/greatest/newest web technologies - then I guess it's just not good enough, and I will have to redevelop with something else asap.

I originally opted for WebDev to keep consistency between the static web and the dynamic webdev "back-end". If I wasn't trying to drive sales then WebDev would be fine. I think our website looks pretty good - but the number of people accessing it with tablets and mobile phones is surprisingly high. So, I guess it's not what I like that matters.

[ I know I can code for phones and tablets - but I need the no-code approach so that I can occasionally get some sleep :( ]

Having said all that, anyone got any advice on the best of the latest/greatest web technologies? Wix? What's easy to integrate with a Dynamic WebDev back-end customer site?

von DerekM - am 27.03.2016 06:51
Hi,

there was an update of the french version some time ago. I wdownloaded that and tried it again:

- Still no templates responsive sites :sneg:

I hope thare comes an other update before the englishversion comex out.
By the way . In the documentation of version 21 was mentioned that charts would be availeble in php version as well. Well they are not ( in the french vversion) . Maybe pcsoft can surprice us and fix these issues?

I have been looking at other stuff for a while and now WaveMaker seems to be kind of cool. It is like a windev for the web.
However if you need to programm custom logic , as far as I could find out in my little investigation one would have to programm in java..

regards
Allard

von Allard - am 27.03.2016 12:32
Hi Allard,

The latest French release supports responsive templates...
At the TDF they covered a whole topic on it (tips & tricks) and it is moving finally in the right direction.
Probably they'll publish a (French) video of this session after all sessions have been given.

Cheers,

Peter

von Peter Holemans - am 28.03.2016 13:45
Thanks for that update Peter. Sounds like there is a least quite a bit of effort going into this.

As a footnote: I reckon this pretty much answers the perpetual complaints about the 'delay' between the French and English versions.

Nous devrions être reconnaissants que les Français faire tous les tests Beta ;)

von DerekM - am 28.03.2016 22:39
Hi Peter,

Nope

Version interne 30F210051t

I guess that is the version numeber? It doesnot allow to save templates (Enregistrer comme un modele )

von Allard - am 29.03.2016 10:53
Hi Allard,

Yes it does (51t)...
Open up your template page and next its properties (the 7 tabs).
At the bottom flag: "Edition Responsive Web Design - positionnement par grille fluide et mise en page multiples".

That should do the trick.

Cheers,

Peter Holemans

von Peter Holemans - am 29.03.2016 13:41
Ok
I will look at it again when the english version comes. It is anounced so I have it will be availeble soon :spos:

Regards
Allard

von Allard - am 30.03.2016 21:59
so finally after reading this topic the main idea is IF you're planning on webdev for Responsive features it's better to wait few months or the next version. Is that right?
Thanks

von belkassem - am 09.04.2016 20:15
Hi belkassem,

Well I gave it an other try this weekend with the newest french version And ...

Yes it is possible to make something that actually works:spos:

But there are a view things to considder:
Do you know any french? If not then maybe just wait for the english version

Why

Well itf you are going to make responsive sites then you need to do quits some tweeking.
especially with the Ancrage feature of controls. ( To get the result you want )

And This is not as visual as with windev. You have to know what the options mean when you select. After selected you can see what it will do though. But it is quite a challange.

But as stated. I started from scratch. I think that is the best way to begin.

Then add cells and configure then. Then add controls and configure them. My French is not good so it is quite a trial en d Error excersize. But webdev does what it needs to be doing:spos:

It took me half a day to get my first page running ( php modus ). except for the menu be I get the graspof it so it should be possible to get this done

PS
I sent a mail to pc soft and this is what they responded:

Van: PC SOFT - Fabrice Chambon [mailto:fabrice.chambon@pcsoft.fr]
Verzonden: vrijdag 8 april 2016 18:43
Aan: ra.vandermolen@wdsoft.nl
Onderwerp: Re : question on webdev

Hi ,
US Version 21 is plan to be available by th end of may.

For Benelux, please contact our official dealer :

von Allard - am 11.04.2016 06:40
Hi Allard

That's really good news! Thanks for the update. :-)

von DerekM - am 14.04.2016 03:19
Hi, I come from the recent PCSoft W21 presentation in italy, that took place in Milan.

We saw the english 21 IDEs, 64 bit, running smoothly on Win10.
About WD21 we saw 30 minutes of telemetry as if it is the unique interesting feature..
This is not the right topic for talking about that and WD mobile 21.

I report what I saw about WB21 and responsive sites. Gerome Aerts presented the responsive feature. Web Apps are not exactly my field but I can say that we saw something running fine, even if I don't know if that is exactly what you expect from responsiveness.

There is a mask where you define the sizes of limits defining where the application look should change due to the device screen measures. Here you can set up a template - shared by all the forms - and you can decide what you want to show, where and how (= what type of control / menu) in the page when screen sizes change.
It seems something I can code also in WD20 as response to a WHEN RESIZING event..
or not?

von StefanoG - am 15.04.2016 19:45
Hi,

I am working with webdev 21 . I am making a responsive site. Ok Odd think happend.

I did someting I thing it was at the modification section . But now I have an odd languadge on the buttons and forms in edit mode. when I generate the teksts are in dutch ( the language I specified)

If I use the rich tekst feature on a butto and I specify bold then the dutch language is displayed in edit mode as well. Anyone an Idea how to fix this ?

Regards
Allard

von Allard - am 25.04.2016 09:49
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