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WinDev Forum
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35
Erster Beitrag:
vor 12 Monaten
Letzter Beitrag:
vor 11 Monaten, 2 Wochen
Beteiligte Autoren:
StanleyBarnett, ccc2, Allard, GuenterP, Peter Holemans, Noel Tanti, Art Bonds, Yogi Yang, DarrenF, steve erts, Al, Fabrice Harari

English WX21 For Sale

Startbeitrag von StanleyBarnett am 23.11.2016 04:48

Hi,

I have WinDev, WebDev, WinDev Mobile, MSSQL Native Access and Application Server, all Versions 21. I bought them back in January, 2016.

I am considering selling them all. If I sell them, I need to sell it all as I don't need to be stuck with any left-overs.

Anyway, if you are interested in making a serious offer, I'll listen and maybe just sell it. I will take less than what I paid, but I'm not willing to take a big loss...

PM me if interested...

Thanks,
Stanley Barnett

Antworten:

Back in January Stanley wrote:

"I too am on the fence about committing to PC Soft as our development tools because of their lack of commitment to the English developer community. The tools appear to be really good, but if we need to learn French first, then the "develop 10 times faster" no longer holds true...

If I were to commit, I would also invest in training and learning tools such as the LST, so for me, this translates into a $ 3118 usd sale plus the subscription of an English LST.

So PCSoft, you really need to do this while you have the opportunity as these windows of opportunity doesn't stay open for ever..."

Stanley committed, but is now looking to drop Wx. So you think maybe the English developer community is losing yet another developer because of PCSoft's lack of vision and support for the community? I know WxPerts is trying to do the right thing, but it takes two to tango, and PCSoft has to take the lead.

von Art Bonds - am 25.11.2016 03:16
Hi,

1.
Quote

" lack of commitment to the English developer community"
"PCSoft's lack of vision and support for the community? "


what kind of community support you guys expect from PCS ? so far I don't see big different between french and english support

2.
Quote

" I would also invest in training "

This same apply to other tools


"and learning tools such as the LST, so for me, this translates into a $ 3118 usd sale plus the subscription of an English LST."

I have never subscribe LST and so many others . There are no issue .

3.
Quote

"The tools appear to be really good, but if we need to learn French first, then the "develop 10 times faster" no longer holds true..."


I been using WD for years and I don't read/speak french.

I drop upgrade for WD since version 20 . the reason it's not because of the tools or PCS . it's because based on market research, I conclude windows desktop app is dying. no point to continue to invest.

von ccc2 - am 25.11.2016 04:32
Hi ccc,

Pertaining to #2 above,,, I'm not saying the LST is the solution, but it sure could help. Since day 1, I've been looking for training classes where I can go and get 1-on-1 training about this very different programming paradigm compared to Microsoft Visual Anything. I come from VFP. I admit I'm trying to do some of the more advanced stuff first as more of a test of performance and stability. And that is where 1-on-1 help from an expert would be most valuable. A day of performing some of the advanced stuff would cause us to deal with a lot of the new-comer issues. Once that is out of the way, then a lot of the limited help (forums, videos, technical papers, community, and examples would be useful for further growth).

Also at the stage where I'm at, contacting PCSoft's technical support would be wasting both our times as I need to understand the comparison's between what I know (VFP) and the new PCSoft way. Plus the time zone differences creates another barrier, but one that can be easier overcome once we learn the layout and flow... In all the years of doing VFP programming, I have never contacted Microsoft for any help about anything.

Back in February, I contacted Glenn from SoftDesign and he said they used to do classes but had not scheduled or intend to schedule any. Now compared to VisualStudio, 1-on-1 training is available almost everywhere. Even college and tech school has lots of students that can help, but not so with PCSoft in the US, as no one has ever heard about them.

Also, I've been "tuned in" to WXPerts looking for new content and hopefully a class schedule, and it appears they are really interested in creating a PCSoft hosting solutions and doing contract programming instead of being a training & sales facility. That's my take by reading between the lines. I also noted there is no real office for them, instead they use an address to a UPS store. Just google their address... Also, haven't seen any young programmers use PCSoft here in the US. Doesn't that say something??? It does to me!

Thanks for your reply...
Stanley

von StanleyBarnett - am 26.11.2016 07:52
Hi CC2

Totally agree with you.I sent pc soft an email last week on the subject that web should be their main target not desktop development.

I am not going to go win windev 22 but insted webdev 22 for sure. I have been working with webdev 21 and it is an amaizing tool. It really is.

But i think pc soft should invest more in decumentation , video.s etc on how to add j query .

It is not as easy as windev and it will problably never be. But compare it to other IDe's . Well then the choise for me is easy!

regards
Allard

von Allard - am 26.11.2016 13:58
Hello Allard & ccc2


Quote
Tell him he's dreaming :)


I think you are wrong about the desktop going away anytime soon. Most of our clients have simply moved to a remote server running Windows - either a single server, ours or theirs co-located or they use one of our multi tenanted servers. So much faster than web based programs and more secure. They can get to the server quickly from workstations in the office and from latops, phone and tablets in the field.

Regards
Al

von Al - am 26.11.2016 23:11
Hi al

I guess It depends on what clients groupyou are targetting and in witch region you live.

But it is going to the web for sure. even IDE's are going this way .

Smartface ( IDE for creating mob apps has a n IDE now completely in the cloud)
Mendix ( IDE completely webbased )

And more are coming

If you want to be in business a view years from now Well you better be prepared for the web!

Why then web:
- maybe resourches ? A webdev application server can run easy 10 times then umber of apps then running apps remote.

regards

Allard

von Allard - am 27.11.2016 15:54
Quote
Al
Hello Allard & ccc2


Quote
Tell him he's dreaming :)


I think you are wrong about the desktop going away anytime soon. Most of our clients have simply moved to a remote server running Windows - either a single server, ours or theirs co-located or they use one of our multi tenanted servers. So much faster than web based programs and more secure. They can get to the server quickly from workstations in the office and from latops, phone and tablets in the field.

Regards
Al



That's my take too. Most of our clients run our Windev app on hosted servers over the internet. Companies are interested in being able to access their apps from anywhere. Whether that app runs in a browser or not is immaterial. In fact, because of security concerns my largest client unequivocally did not want a browser based application and the fact that our app was desktop was a determining factor in us getting the contract.

von steve erts - am 27.11.2016 19:53
Quote
Allard
Hi CC2

Totally agree with you.I sent pc soft an email last week on the subject that web should be their main target not desktop development.

I am not going to go win windev 22 but insted webdev 22 for sure. I have been working with webdev 21 and it is an amaizing tool. It really is.

But i think pc soft should invest more in decumentation , video.s etc on how to add j query .

It is not as easy as windev and it will problably never be. But compare it to other IDe's . Well then the choise for me is easy!

regards
Allard


Hi Allard,

I drop webdev years ago because of the webdev application server . I suggested to PCS to opensource the application server and make money from the development tools like how MS did to ASP.net . but PCS reject .

and due to alot my customer refuse to install the application server on their server because they don't know anything about it. I drop webdev and go to asp.net & nodejs

just look around and count , how many web hosting provide webdev application server.

webdev had a chance to be come big , but PCS screw it.

von ccc2 - am 28.11.2016 01:23
Hi Steve,

I agree, same situation here. We have hundreds of small to medium businesses as customers, none of them had expressed their preference / need for a browser application. In contrary, quite a few of them insist that their computers are not being connected to the web at all. Which makes support by remote access a bit of a problem to us and expensive for them. In case of POS systems our customers want to be able to operate their systems in their shops even if internet is off by some reason. So, we did replicate databases long before PCS had the idea to do so. Next, seeing the browser framing the application is not to the taste of everybody. So, most of our customers are happy with a rented server running HFSQL and applications stay to be desktop.

von GuenterP - am 28.11.2016 06:07
Quote
GuenterP
Hi Steve,

I agree, same situation here. We have hundreds of small to medium businesses as customers, none of them had expressed their preference / need for a browser application. In contrary, quite a few of them insist that their computers are not being connected to the web at all. Which makes support by remote access a bit of a problem to us and expensive for them. In case of POS systems our customers want to be able to operate their systems in their shops even if internet is off by some reason. So, we did replicate databases long before PCS had the idea to do so. Next, seeing the browser framing the application is not to the taste of everybody. So, most of our customers are happy with a rented server running HFSQL and applications stay to be desktop.


For POS system, you no need to worry. since you have control over the hardware. I know a F&B POS system that written in VB6 and running on winxp . Customer didn't care because it's stand alone system in hardware. do you care what software running inside your printer ?

But if you doing custom design inhouse program , things will be alot different . you may or may not has full access to their network or resource.

for example, a distributor company ask you to design and write a inhouse system for them. which they want to be able to access inside company and remote ( for supplier and customer) . can you suggest desktop application ? of course you can't. web application will be more logical.

recently I had to convert a 10 years old program desktop application to web because security policy change which no longer allow network drive which i use to put the program/data and install program on client pc also not allow . This is to prevent malware like ransomware which target files in network drive.

if you haven't encounter such situation, count yourself very lucky

von ccc2 - am 28.11.2016 10:06
Hi Allard,

the IDEs are going to the web (and to the Cloud too) because the software makers want to keep control over the users of their software. It's another way to stop piracy while letting customers move wherever they want. An additional extra is to have control over the data and developed products of their customers. So, you don't want to pay your monthly or yearly charge? Easy: you don't have access to your projects anymore! Same goes with bankruptcy. Your projects and maybe even the data are going South. A word of wisdom: keep away from that approach!

von GuenterP - am 28.11.2016 12:02
Hi Guenter,

Quote
Guenter
word of wisdom: keep away from that approach!


What perspective is your opinion from? customer or provider

As a provider, we are using that approach for customer solutions for the reasons you mention. However we would never buy into anything where we lost control/possession of the data...

Different question, I went looking at the source code at syspredl.com primaraly looking how much WebDev was used in its creation. It is saying that it is being rebuilt into a new site. What really stood out was that it appears to be a WordPress site and not WebDev. So I have to ask Why? if WebDev is such a great product?

Thanks, Stanley

von StanleyBarnett - am 28.11.2016 16:51
Hi, the perspective is customer AND provider. As a customer, I wouldn't trust my valuable data and my design / software products to somebody who can close business anytime. As a provider I'd have to take into account that many customers would be shied away from my service because of their uncertainty pertaining to data + products. Seems to me that the new Adobe approach exactly shows the problems. Now, they are running in my front and my back door by offering discounts and whatever else. No friends, that's it. We're not going to hand over our business to you!

WebDev is mainly for dynamic Web Sites but doesn't provide a CMS out of the box, which is logical, both approaches contradict each other. Either you have a dynamic web site connected to your company's IT systems OR you have lots of text, text, text and need to maintain that site easily from anywhere. Since, for the business fields presented in syspredl.com, no dynamic web site is needed, we decided for Wordpress. Always use the proper tool ...

von GuenterP - am 29.11.2016 08:36
Hi Guenter,

Quote
Guenter
As a customer, I wouldn't trust my valuable data and my design / software products to somebody who can close business anytime.


I totally agree.

Quote
Guenter
We're not going to hand over our business to you!


Again, I totally agree...

What Adobe article were you reading? More and more companies especially cloud based companies have possession of the data, and I'm not seeing that resistance here. I'm sure there is plenty of resistance, but many customers are wanting to get out of hosting their own apps on their servers and dealing with all that entails such as backups and hardware issues.

Office 365 and Google Office are some of the main forces that are responsible for changing public opinion about where the hosting is done. And especially the bean counters (CFOs) as it is generally far less expensive doing it in the cloud on providers servers. But as we both know, when disaster strikes the customer they may be out of business, and possible due to negligence of the provider.


WEBDEV
Thanks for the reasoning behind your usage of WebDev mainly because PCS hasn't created a CMS component/template. Would'nt that be wise for them to create a CMS module/template, as I was under the impression that WebDev was the right tool for any site whether static or dynamic data driven sites. I understand the lack of the CMS template causing you to look at Wordpress, but for me, I would rather learn a tool capable of doing the majority of the web dev work.

Thanks, Stanley

von StanleyBarnett - am 30.11.2016 01:29
whether you guys like it or not , you just have to accept it and get use to it. self host server will become more and more expensive and unreliable to do in future . don't surprise that the government already did that.


for webdev , maybe for now .
But I believe the future (10 to 20 years) of web development is SPA (single page application ) using javascript which allow the application to run as desktop application or web application.

something like http://www.crossui.com/ . but this tools is still very simple to be use for complex development system.

if only we can have windev to generate out javascript (SPA) . that will be fantastic.

von ccc2 - am 30.11.2016 04:21
Hi Stanley,

1 - mainly, it's a question of security. If someone can block me accessing my data or my applications then that 'someone' can decide to switch off my business any time. That's worth a lot of money. It starts from a caterpillar accidentially digging out a fiber cable, a provider going out of business and ends up with war times somewhere else, not even in my country and not even near to my business. Not to talk about espionage. NSA is fighting hard with big companies to get access to their clouds. Many European companies had to find out the hard way that their reasearch data / patents were stolen and surfaced at a company in the US. Others found "their" products to be produced independently in China or Russia. It's much more convenient to break into one server farm and get at the data of thousands of companies than having to break into each and every server of each of those companies. If "cloud" is really worth pondering with then why not start your own cloud on your own server? Example: https://owncloud.org/

2 - It's PC Soft's business, not ours. Never try to tell someone how to do their business without knowing each and every detail about it. If a CMS is added to WEBDEV at any time in the future and if that CMS competes with WordPress's then for sure, we'll think about it. For the time being we're happy with the Responsive Design of that theme and the amazing number of plugins which include site statistics, SEO, sliders etc.

von GuenterP - am 30.11.2016 07:25
Quote
Guenter
If "cloud" is really worth pondering with then why not start your own cloud on your own server?

That is exactly what we have done, as we too believes as you do by NOT allowing our data in the control of others.

Quote
ccc2
whether you guys like it or not , you just have to accept it and get use to it. self host server will become more and more expensive and unreliable to do in future

You are correct as Microsoft and Google are paving the way as I've already said above.


Quote
Guenter
It's PC Soft's business, not ours. Never try to tell someone how to do their business without knowing each and every detail about it.

Well, yes and no. It becomes our business when we purchase and use their product as PCS is in the business of building tools that we use. And you say "never tell someone how to do their business", well, I'm not trying to tell them how to do their business, but as a customer, I have every right to tell them what I need to compete with like products, and if they don't listen and provide what is needed, then they do not deserve our business and cash...

Thanks for the Wordpress pointers and how it stacks against WebDev. I've really been waiting to redo our site after getting proficient in WebDev, which is not working out very well. You speak of "Responsive Design" and I thought that WebDev 21 excelled in that. So why not learn it by using it.

Thanks Again,
Stanley

von StanleyBarnett - am 30.11.2016 17:10
Hi ccc2,

With templates webdev can be surprisingly good. , creating a desktop like page. Using the material design ( google ) it looks great

If it where possible to use internal pages , in a way that they could be added to a page by programming then You wouyld onley need one page. sadly that is not the case. But maybe in verion 22 Ha ha

For now Iam using templates and it really looks good. The looper can be used to do create inline edit . It took me some time but it can do absolutely everything I want it to do.

I only use verry little j-querie to do some keyboard stuff. the rest is all native webdev.

I wanted to add a big jquery project for a gantt chart but that is not working out . For now I stoped trying. But the rest is cool and running on a vps with 2GB mem it is lightnig fast!!

regards
Allard

von Allard - am 01.12.2016 12:11
Hi

Quote
Allard
If it where possible to use internal pages , in a way that they could be added to a page by programming then You wouyld onley need one page. sadly that is not the case. But maybe in verion 22 Ha ha


You can, but it's not with internal pages. What you are describing is done using iframes and regular pages displayed in them.

Of course, the drawback of this technique is that the content of the iframes is normally NOT referenced by search engines. Except for that, it can be used in a very powerful way.

Best regards

von Fabrice Harari - am 01.12.2016 18:05
Hi,

As shown during the TDF WB22 allows for single page web apps and supports planes like in WinDev now.
They can be loaded asynchronously when needed so not the whole site with all planes needs to be loaded at once.
P. 76-77-78 in the WX22 French brochure

I guess we'll have to see how well done it is as many features can be pretty half baked at their first (and even consecutive) releases...

Cheers,

Peter Holemans

von Peter Holemans - am 01.12.2016 18:55
Hi Peter,

Thanks for the info.

by using google translator I try to understand the WX22 French brochure. but info is very little to give me full picture how it going to be done.

do you know any link for SPA demo site that using webdev ?

This demo site using extjs is something I hope WD can do
http://examples.sencha.com/extjs/6.2.0/examples/classic/desktop/index.html

just imaging , all your existing wd project can generate out SPA which you can run on local browser without web server .

5 years ago I once using extjs to create a test windows mdi sytle where user able to run multiple Report windows (SSRS) at same time. everyone impress but too much hand write code to be actual use in development of complex application.

von ccc2 - am 02.12.2016 04:01
Hi CCC,

Well, the browser is the future... Whoever thinks different must be blind.
None of our customers (mostly multinational medium to large sized corporations) want full Windows desktop apps anymore unless it concerns server side sort of 'black boxes' (services/batch programs/web services). If there is a UI involved, they all want it browser based or there must be a very good reason not to do so. It's clear that this is the direction to go...

Maybe PCSoft can rewrite their window generator to spit out js code like the extjs framework. They might call it the wxjs but it would require them to rewrite their runtime for a browser based context. Then you might get controls like here http://examples.sencha.com/extjs/5.1.0/examples/kitchensink/#all running in any browser on any platform.

Well, even M$ are doing a complete rewrite of their .Net framework and have thrown it in open source (.Net Core) to speed up development and get it to run on any platform (and their cloud of course...). They keep control of the direction based on feedback from the community.

That's the direction most stuff is moving to... I wished PCSoft would open up their own systems some more (via API's for exemple) so we developers could extend it whenever we feel blocked by its current limitations or to build development automation or open source frameworks on top of it. But I guess that will remain just another wet dream looking at their paranoid mindset surrounding their products...

We like WX and use it for the stuff where we feel it brings a good value for money but we're not married to PCSoft neither. It brings in about 35% to 40% of our turnover.... It always feels good to know you're free to choose the best tool for the job and in quite some cases, WX is a great tool for building specific solutions. Especially when it comes to speed of delivery (but that includes the use and advantage of our own over the years written WX class based frameworks we build on top of course)...

They sell it too much as some sort of Access/FileMaker/VB

von Peter Holemans - am 02.12.2016 08:00
Quote
Allard
Hi ccc2,

With templates webdev can be surprisingly good. , creating a desktop like page. Using the material design ( google ) it looks great
---
For now Iam using templates and it really looks good. The looper can be used to do create inline edit . It took me some time but it can do absolutely everything I want it to do.
---
But the rest is cool and running on a vps with 2GB mem it is lightnig fast!!


Allred, is this site facing the public, and can we get a look at it? Would be nice to see a well written site in action.
Thanks,

von Art Bonds - am 02.12.2016 16:54
Hi

Most of our client are ok with the desktop and a remote database. Windev mobile is good too.

Thinking forward what are you guys using to do web apps? I never tried webdev but it seems to be a mixed bag. Any alternatives along the lines of windev for easy of use and development?

Thanks
Noel

von Noel Tanti - am 03.12.2016 17:11
Hi Noel,

In my opinion webdev is great!!. Compare it to a product like servoy and development is 40 times faster!.

Now there are shortcommings(( in verion 21 ) if you need to go outside what is standard webdev. Adding a j-querie application to your project for instance. Sniplets work just fine but complete apps . Hm no.

View weeks ago I sent pc soft an mail on this. And .... Look at what is new in webdev 22.

- Support for css html ( code ediors) and even a component to add jquery projects. You can add in a framework and use it in w language. etc etcYes integration with webstandards seems to be the way PC soft is going. Version 22 is a huge step into this direction for sure. If you can tap into the opensource world out there the the sky is the limit!!
Please read the doumentation on www.pcsoft.fr. It is in French though..



Webdev 21 is already great but if you need more then standard webdev componants it is a pain. But even with standard webdev you can do a lot. and in a verry fast manner.

I am working on a web app as we speak and it works out great. This is an app that will put my windev accounting/ project management app to the web. And it will not be a "Simple version". It will do everything the windev app does and more.

So if you kow windev and wlanguage take the time to lurn the webdev way and you will be surpriced what it can do. There might be some lurning to do on your behaf but it will be worth it

Just my thoughts on this.

regards
Allard

von Allard - am 04.12.2016 00:16
Hi Allard

thanks for the encouragment.

do PCSoft offer a webdev express where I can experiment. With the present workload I will not be up and running very soon and do not feel like buying webdev to try it out. Webdev or something else is a week end project so to speak.


Regards
Noel

von Noel Tanti - am 04.12.2016 08:13
Hi Noel,

That was how it went with me to. Because I had problems selling the windev app I made and there seems to be demand for web apps. I gave version 21 a go.

It was a big encouragement when I saw that steven sitas wa able to make the erp with webdev. I started with trying out the difficult stuff . To see if it was possible at all.
No pressure just figuring out stuff.
With the anchoring you can achief a lot. and with the material design theme ( google has a lot of free images for that as well) it looked like a cool ritch internet app.

Do not get me wrong if you go with webdev it comes with some costs.
The app server costs 299 and 129 with the discount every year.
So if you want to use all the new stuff it will cost about 630 to upgrade every year.


In my opinion it is worth it. If pc soft wants more users it is my opinion that they should include the app server for free. But it is like it is.

There is no tial for webdev or a free limited version. So you will have to take a leep of faith and go with it. I can onley say that version 21 is mature enough to make real business apps.

Version 22 promises nice features for short commings version 21 has. See my other post on that. But this is my opinion. Other forum users may disagree.

regards
allard

von Allard - am 04.12.2016 11:07
Hi Noel,

No, unfortunately there is no express version of WB.

von DarrenF - am 04.12.2016 11:07
I hope can see WD.JS and using something like enclose.js to compile to binary for distribution .

if windev can generate out . I will come back to windev , even if it cost double.

server side should just use as webservice (to relay data from /to db) which will be better for performance .

von ccc2 - am 05.12.2016 12:03
Quote
Allard
Adding a j-querie application to your project for instance.

So adding something like a chat or any .js application to a WebDev21 website is not doable?

Thanks, Stanley

von StanleyBarnett - am 05.12.2016 14:30
Hi Stanley,

You can perfectly include .js stuff in there... I have several of these plugins in WebDev applications like CKEditor and it works pretty well.

However with V22 there are major enhancements coming up in this area.
I just still have to test how well they integrate but from what I've seen it is pretty well done.
Pages 78-79-80 in the French WX22 brochure.

Cheers,

Peter Holemans

von Peter Holemans - am 05.12.2016 15:01
Hi all,

As of my meeting in person with Andy Stapleton from WXPerts yesterday (Sunday) and seeing their new training initiative, I agreed to give pcSoft another chance, which is what I needed and could not find when I purchased it a year ago. So for now, I am withdrawing my offer to sell, so if this does not work out as expected, then I will sell it all.

Before I had decided to sell the WX stuff and coming from a Microsoft VFP background I had started the transition to Visual Studio 2015 community/free edition with Xamarin integrated, as it seems like that best way to use my 18 years of VFP skills. The need to do web and mobile was something that VFP could not do, hence the need for a replacement.

Thanks for all interest...
Stanley

von StanleyBarnett - am 05.12.2016 21:49
Hi Stanly,

There are other apps that are fine as well.:

- Wakanda for instance ( is a free version availeble ) Works with javascript for server and browser. Verry cool But also relative new product.

and if you want to go completely to a new ide for VPF, where you can even code VPF code check out :
Lianja

But for me webdev is the way to go
1 Because I know wlanguage
2 I know the IDe. Queries is a snap etc etc
3 V22 goes in way you can adopt opensource stuff
etc

But there are other interisting developments as wellL
Oracl has opensouced there java framework and give away a free ide ( Jdeveloper) in that you can do a lot like 4 gl development. A big portion of the adf faces is free availeble as ware a view application servers to deploy for free as well glas fish etc
There are some 150 controls . But developing for mobile is still only on they paid version and is expensive

Then there are the apps that let you draw your code with schema's that gain popularity for build in features can give administrators udge do it your self features.
- Webratio ( reasonably priced)
- Out systems ( expensive)
- Mendix ( expensive )

von Allard - am 06.12.2016 19:32
Hello,

For that matter there are other xBase dev tools also like:

  1. Flagship (http://www.fship.com/)
  2. Harbour (https://harbour.github.io/)
  3. XBase++ (http://alaska-software.com/products/overview.cxp)

HTH

Yogi Yang

von Yogi Yang - am 07.12.2016 12:02
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