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Version 22 English - later than usual?

Startbeitrag von Donald Montaine am 10.04.2017 18:15

I just noticed that version 21 Final came out on 4/22 last year - and of course the beta was a few weeks before that and the Version 21 brochure was available in late March ( if I remember right).

Antworten:

Yeah, was just thinking the same thing myself...

von DarrenF - am 10.04.2017 23:33
Hi,

Maybe they lost interest in the English community.
Is there a garanty that PCSoft is building an English version every year ?
Does anyone know how many English license are sold every year ?

von Harry W - am 11.04.2017 07:51
Hi,
usually PC Soft exercises a full overhaul of the French version while testing / translating the English pre-version. We've got WINDEV 22 059g / French on 6th of April. Means: the English version of v22 is around the corner. Maybe, it takes a bit longer this year. Quite a couple of problems were solved (one of mine too! I even received a mail!). The WINDEV IDE and WINDEV Mobile IDE have been made identical - means that we will see "layouts" in WINDEV as well - as they are there in the French version already.

von GuenterP - am 11.04.2017 08:21
Hi Harry, come on, of course there will be an English version like each year in the past! v22 has got a lot of new features which take their time to be integrated and translated. How many? Enough! ;-)

von GuenterP - am 11.04.2017 08:25
Hi,
Typical, I was just searching when the new versions will be released in English, as more people I see now.

I question myself, is it humorous or alarming that we get exited when we receive a mail back from PCSoft ;)

Well I don't understand why the do not program the PCSoft software in the 2 languages at once, And publish updates for both versions, It seems more work to first program the French version and then reprogram everythin in english?
If I program software the software is written in dutch and english at once...

Regards,
Joey

von J.D. - am 11.04.2017 08:32
Quote
J.D.
Well I don't understand why the do not program the PCSoft software in the 2 languages at once, And publish updates for both versions, It seems more work to first program the French version and then reprogram everythin in english?

That is probably more work for them.
They have still not been able to convert all the error messages to English after all these years.

von Yogi Yang - am 11.04.2017 13:32
Hi

What I write below is just my understanding, based on nearly 25 years of using PCSoft products, but I do not have any insider info.

First, translation is probably done OUTSIDE of their development tool (with the equivalent of WDMSG), so there is no programming involved at all

Second, they are waiting for all features to be finished before translating (only one translation effort, and no need to come back on the translation of pieces that have been corrected/modified)

Third, as the law is quite different in each country (in the USA compared to France, by example), I doubt that they would want to release the version in US before it's at least 95% completed. In France, a lawsuit because the product is not finished, not complete or not working as advertised would basically be a joke. Not so in the USA by example.

FINALLY, an perhaps most importantly, you DO NOT WANT to work with any version before april/may. In fact, for me (French, and buying the french version in december every year), the time to START using the new version is when the US versions comes out. Everything before that should be considered a beta version and NOT used for any serious work.

So do not be envious of all the French developers doing the beta testers for you each year without being told that they are doing that... You have the good end of the bargain...

Best regards

von Fabrice Harari - am 11.04.2017 14:34
Quote
Fabrice Harari
Hi

What I write below is just my understanding, based on nearly 25 years of using PCSoft products, but I do not have any insider info.

First, translation is probably done OUTSIDE of their development tool (with the equivalent of WDMSG), so there is no programming involved at all

Second, they are waiting for all features to be finished before translating (only one translation effort, and no need to come back on the translation of pieces that have been corrected/modified)

Third, as the law is quite different in each country (in the USA compared to France, by example), I doubt that they would want to release the version in US before it's at least 95% completed. In France, a lawsuit because the product is not finished, not complete or not working as advertised would basically be a joke. Not so in the USA by example.

FINALLY, an perhaps most importantly, you DO NOT WANT to work with any version before april/may. In fact, for me (French, and buying the french version in december every year), the time to START using the new version is when the US versions comes out. Everything before that should be considered a beta version and NOT used for any serious work.

So do not be envious of all the French developers doing the beta testers for you each year without being told that they are doing that... You have the good end of the bargain...

Best regards


Hi Fabrice,

Maybe you're right, I noticed before that the first versions are buggy....

If I had a saying about it I would like to see the following from PCSoft:

  • No 922 new features, but bugfixes and stability. Many "strange" bugs occure, I do not need new features but stabillity. I know from years ago they did the same thing with RealBasic, and we got a stable peace of software and only a few people complaint about no new features, many people appreciated it.
  • A public place for bug reports, and if they have solutions publish it their, no you enter a support request, after the maximum 2 days you get response, then you need to make a small project with the problem (sometimes not possible), and then they say after weeks/months: we know this problem and have a solution. You get a download link with the fix, and what about all the other customers with the same problem?



Regards,
Joey

von J.D. - am 13.04.2017 13:11
Quote
Joey
If I had a saying about it I would like to see the following from PCSoft:
No 922 new features, but bugfixes and stability. Many "strange" bugs occure, I do not need new features but stabillity. I know from years ago they did the same thing with RealBasic, and we got a stable peace of software and only a few people complaint about no new features, many people appreciated it.
A public place for bug reports, and if they have solutions publish it their, no you enter a support request, after the maximum 2 days you get response, then you need to make a small project with the problem (sometimes not possible), and then they say after weeks/months: we know this problem and have a solution. You get a download link with the fix, and what about all the other customers with the same problem?


Hi Joey,

They couldn't care less and just take your money and run off to their next big 'December' surprise filled with mediocre built X-mas-tree gadgets that are at best only more or less implemented in a workable update release half a year later...

I've tried many time to have a chat about this with the commercial guys and gals at PCS (In French and English).
It's pure ignorance from their part and one of the main reasons why I'm jumping ship completely after nearly 17 years. :hot:
They're simply stuck in the 80's and 90's and missed the open platform, open standards and community boat completely...

But... I'm most happy to still be able to help all of you if needed and if my WX experience can put you back on track in a specific case. This still is an excellent web-community on which I've always hung around at a regular basis...

I might still continue to use WD here and there as that is the only real mature product of the suite and if you use it within its design limits.
Many stuff still lacks though: Real modern web services integration still have many limitations. there's e.g. No ComplexType support although the first requests on the PCSoft forum date back more than 10 years ago. Also there is still no domain (Negotiate/Kerberos) authentication support (Only standard and oAuth) after all these years / etc, etc... WB and the WB application server even simply 's*ck'.

If you need more rant, I can give you some: http://27130.foren.mysnip.de/read.php?27131,774407,774407#msg-774407
and
http://27130.foren.mysnip.de/read.php?27131,777428,777467#msg-777467

Cheers,

Peter Holemans

von Peter Holemans - am 13.04.2017 15:11
Hi Peter,

Well I have one big project programmed with PCSoft software, it's 70% of my core business. I'm using 3 different services (Windev), 2 webservices (Windev) and 2 websites (WebDev), and this on 3 servers, many companies and users are dependend in different countries. Not that easy to step out ;)

Cheers...

von J.D. - am 14.04.2017 15:05
Hi Petter,

Just curious, what dev tool you will be using instaid of WDx products ?

James

von James Smiths - am 14.04.2017 22:31
Hi all

What's the hurry? The new version won't be stable enough and its boldly advertised new features won't really be available until the final upgrade of the version, if even then...

My experience from my last upgrade (from WD19 to 21) was a real horror story, which I do not want to go through again.

My measure is pretty full of this same crap year after year. I might very well skip the next version or two (or three or four...), unless they are heavily concentrated on improving the quality rather than bringing out "new features", to save my nerves and leisure time and to get something productive done instead of fighting with new bugs.

Best regards
Ola

von Ola - am 15.04.2017 10:09
Quote
Fabrice Harari


FINALLY, an perhaps most importantly, you DO NOT WANT to work with any version before april/may. In fact, for me (French, and buying the french version in december every year), the time to START using the new version is when the US versions comes out. Everything before that should be considered a beta version and NOT used for any serious work.

So do not be envious of all the French developers doing the beta testers for you each year without being told that they are doing that... You have the good end of the bargain...

Best regards


I don't care how many update the french version get . for English version PCS had maintenance 3 updates per year for many years now.

I don't want to heard Not stable/ Bugs/Beta , because this is their job to make sure each update stable and they are getting paid from it and we are paying them.

don't talk like they doing open source FOC project.

von ccc2 - am 16.04.2017 02:22
Quote
Ola
Hi all

What's the hurry? The new version won't be stable enough and its boldly advertised new features won't really be available until the final upgrade of the version, if even then...

My experience from my last upgrade (from WD19 to 21) was a real horror story, which I do not want to go through again.

My measure is pretty full of this same crap year after year. I might very well skip the next version or two (or three or four...), unless they are heavily concentrated on improving the quality rather than bringing out "new features", to save my nerves and leisure time and to get something productive done instead of fighting with new bugs.

Best regards
Ola


I only upgrade every other year at most.

9, 11, 15, 18, 20 IIRC.

I don't have time to futz with it every year

steve

von steve erts - am 16.04.2017 15:54
Hi
Like Steve I only upgrade every few years but I think v21 will be my last. It has definitely been far less stable than v17 & has finally forced me to look at alternatives. I have 2 main applications which account for the bulk of my income so changing horses is not a light undertaking!

I have been exploring the .Net route (C#) & for new features have created .Net assemblies which I then call from Windev. I have done a couple of relatively small updates this way now which has worked even better than I hoped so, for me at least, this seems like a way to gradually move away from Windev. Whilst there has been a steep learning curve it has not been as bad as I feared, cost has been zero to date (VS Community Edition, Syncfusion Community controls) & so far, everything has worked as advertised!

David

von David Egan - am 16.04.2017 19:26
Time = money so I am not sure that, other than free software, your move to .NET can actually be classed as a 'no cost' option.
However if you can add functionality or controls that would be difficult/impossible in Wx then no doubt the result is probably worth the effort.

Personally I am to old now to embark on learning a new IDE and will, as I always have, take the upgrade route when v22 becomes available.
I find that most releases contain at least a couple of new elements that catch my interest and although they may not always work 'out of the box' do generally they do add more functionality once sorted.

Just had a look at a wxPerts video - https://youtu.be/jfC0JbqUUsw - which curiously looked at 3 such elements that had already caught my eye....
Document Management, Internal windows within a Table control, and functions to access (oAuth2) Google, FB, Twitter etc.
Either one of them, IMHO, is probably worth the 399 euros I am expecting to pay.

Note that I am not saying anything about existing bugs that are still outstanding or in some cases the overall stability of v21 (mainly I find on Windows 10) as I agree that these are issues that deserve resolving.

Just my opinion of course but I do believe that for the functionality provided, ease of use and relatively low upgrade cost that WD, WM (I do not do Web) are among the best development toolkits available.

von DerekT - am 17.04.2017 10:20
Hi Derek,

While the 'Time = money' argument may have stood rock solid for a long time in WD (Only WD, and one of the main reasons I hung on to it for a long long time) that is to my real life experience no longer the case... WX has been surpassed I'm afraid...

It may seem weird, but these days I can often do a lot more in C# with a lot less lines of code than in WD... 5GL? My ass! ...
(E.g. combine asp .Net Core C# with the .Net Core entity framework and .Net Core MVC and you can build a lightning fast data driven application in no time. Just the learning curve to get familiar with the 'Conventions' is a bit steep at first.)

And then I even didn't mention the millions of code examples, blogs, howto's, best practices, books, video's, online tutorials that I can tap into to help me out whenever I'm stuck. Compare that to a monitored/censored official PCS forum where many many questions often remain unanswered...

Anyhow, all of my customers want web only software anymore and since WB is really a piece of junk and since the WX web services client has so many limitations there's really no alternative neither. At least since I've really started using another platform now, I have freedom and productivity. Something I didn't feel like while dealing with WX because it is so f*ck*ng closed and proprietary.

Anyway, just my 2 cents again !

All the best,

Peter Holemans

von Peter Holemans - am 17.04.2017 19:52
Hello Derek

I tried listening to the wxPerts video and gave up after about 10 minutes - the slow talking Southern dialect drives me insane. I will wait for the English version or learn French :)

Regards
Al

von Al - am 17.04.2017 21:38
Hi Derek
Yeah, time = money (and I should have probably said no charge rather than cost) but when I consider the time I have spent over the years stuffing around with half-baked features and more recently the stability issues I can accept that. Besides, sad individual that I am I still get a kick out of programming & learning different things & it's a great alternative to the garbage on TV!

I have been surprised at how quickly I could get moving with it. No, definitely not as fast as Windev yet but it's very early days & it's certainly not 10 times slower... AND I don't have to deal with the daily frustration of wondering
(1) if the IDE is going to load properly or if I'm going to have to delete the .env file & lose all my settings etc. and/or
(2) when the thing is going to crash & how much work I am likely to lose.

I'm not going to bash Windev because it has been good to me over the years and I could live with all its idiosyncracies but from v20 onwards the IDE has become really problematic for me.

Cheers

David

von David Egan - am 18.04.2017 04:12
Hi Peter,

we're selling software worth more than 100k Euros each year - solely made with WINDEV and WINDEV Mobile. I do not mention the related hardware and turnover with PC Soft's software products. We do not need any web applications yet and if so, we'd try to solve things by WINDEV/Java or by some of the available WINDEV => web applications. For the web we use WordPress as an easily maintainable / extendable package. CMS is free, responsive design as well.

Bugs. Microsoft has a huge list of bugs too. Ok, contrary to PC Soft they do publish their bugs list https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/3025135/visual-studio-2015-fixed-bugs-and-known-issues for Visual Studio. Nonetheless these bugs are there and much like with Wx products, programmers / software engineers have to find their way around.

Fact is that there is no single error-free piece of software in the world. Why should PC Soft products be error-free? All development software is work in progress, errors are found and fixed, updates and workarounds are offered. Same applies to our own software.

We never have had any error, shortcoming or problem in WD or WM for that we couldn't find a workaround or a fix! Btw, that's the job of a software engineer anyway. 90% of our job consists of designing, debugging, testing and documenting and of less than 10% of "programming". Conceded, sometimes we've had to resort to 3rd party software (mainly installers), sometimes we have to use API calls, DLLs or 3rd party .NET assemblies in order to get what we want.

E.g. we had to write our own groupware, because of the limitations of PC Soft's groupware which touches one of the big issues with WX products - "cross platform". The groupware, repositionable notes, Dynamic Tabs etc - all aren't available for all of the three main platforms of Windows, Linux and Java.

For Windows applications we rely heavily on a special usage of MDI with maximized windows only. However, MDI is definitely outdated and not available for Java or Linux. The natural replacement would be internal windows - but opening an internal window from the inside of another internal window creates desaster, so, the whole design of an application with internal windows has to be different.

Next, we're going strictly procedural. If possible at all. Not because we're too dumb to understand OOP but because of maintainance. It's a hell of a job to understand an OOP-program which has been written by another person.

Same goes for SQL. While simple SQL queries are fun, more complex SQL statements have their shortcomings whenever maintainance requires added conditions, reading of other files etc. We stay with our good old H-commands. As a principle. A WHILE - structure can easily be extended, nothing is ever too complex there. I truly love to use HFSQL and H-commands - compared to those poor guys who have to write / test / change complex SQL statements.

We have some really big WINDEV users as customers with up to 50 WINDEV licenses each. Whenever one of them runs into a big problem, you can count on PC Soft to do something about it. Fast. In the worst case they will send a guy to the customer's site. They'll fix it. Of course, that's a case of "Assistence Directe" and means that this service has to be paid for. Will you get a Microsoft guy to identify / fix an SQL Server problem? Next day? At any rate?

von GuenterP - am 18.04.2017 05:15
Guenter,

Thanks for posting this - it echos our own development philosophy and business model. Agree with all your points.

Regards

von JP - am 18.04.2017 07:01
Hi Günter,

You're certainly right on different points with which I agree.
As I stated earlier, I find WD (not WX) still a decent platform if you use it within its design limits. It works great for typical proprietary fat client programs running on Windows like the ones your company builds and sells or like the ones I have rolled-out (Windows client and server side services).

Regarding WB, we really tried creating viable solutions with it for many years, but it really is not a valid web development platform. It's stuck in a paradigm from 15 years ago (web development like you do windows forms development) that has been surpassed more than 10 years ago. On top of that PCS tries to create its own web standards (e.g. their own half-baked responsive design pattern which only works for rather simple pages) instead of hooking into the standard itself...

On WM, we really couldn't get our OO RAD framework we built over the years to run against multiple platforms because the WX runtime taps too much into the existing operating systems instead of being a real platform agnostic runtime. There is better out there if you really want to do multiple (mobile) platform development.

We've too often hit the limits of what is possible with the suite and since it is so proprietary and there's not much community around it you hit a concrete wall in the end making development tedious and expensive because it takes 10 times more time to code around its limitations. We tried building a common framework layer to run across WD-WB-WM that would include our own code generators (Be even more productive). Our conclusion: it is impossible because the WX runtime is not aligned between the different development teams. You have plenty of features and WLanguage functions that are only available in either IDE and within one IDE (e.g. WM) often only for a specific platform. Their marketing in that sense is a scam. Same for their OSX statement, which is a java program in reality. Has anyone really ever created a real full blown WX business application to generate a java assembly that runs on OSX? I doubt it!

Furthermore, the platform is so closed it is nearly unusable... What's wrong with readable source files? Are they afraid one will write WLanguage in notepad? What's wrong with being able to generate source files yourself out of a custom built source generator (Personal RAD)? What's wrong with being able to extend WL objects and their methods? All they have to do is declare them as partial classes at the base and allow the compiler to complete them with your personal extensions in the project? Etc, etc, ...

Regarding your SQL statement, if you're using an ORM like the .Net Core Entity Framework you don't even need to know SQL. The ORM will generate any (the most complex you can imagine) SQL based on your action request within your class. If even can keep the physical db schema in sync. But, there's no ORM in WX, and only a half baked MVC available for WD only (So far the consistency)...

Sure WD, is a fine product and it is clear that it is the only real mature product of the complete suite. As I have sent a couple of years ago to Fabrice Chambon at PCSoft: "If you really want your claim of multi-platform to stick, you need to have all your focus on developing a truly common runtime/vm that supports any function that can be made platform agnostic". As always, I never got a reply and there's not much consistency in the way they are implementing new generic functions and types across all platforms (e.g. dbg functions or the 'record' data type. These are so generic, you need them everywhere.). There's also quite some OO features missing, but that is a different story...

According to me, if you want to build a simple DB driven 'fat, mobile and web client' application that doesn't require a lot of scalability and integration using a simple coding style, you may look as well at e.g. FileMaker (Native OSX, Windows, iOS and web) or others in that area which have less limitations in being multi-platform oriented.

So I guess we agree on WD and on the fact that you need to stick as much to the forced WD carcan when using it (Procedural, Query Editor [which has quite some limitations as well] instead of SQL, only simple and basic web services without domain authentication or ComplexTypes, classical forms design type development provoking a multitude of code replication, no ability to have a real common code layer for multi platform targeted solutions, etc...).

I'm afraid I've outpassed this style of development as it may have worked 10 years ago for niche fat client type solutions and where everybody had a PC only, but isn't relevant anymore in todays services and component based software architectures... The WX-tool isn't up to that kind of architectures and should be used for what it's designed. I'm sure your solutions match that architecture and that for that reason it perfectly fits your needs.

And on the Assistance Direct thing... A couple of years ago, one of my multinational customers was willing to pay for a development via Assistance Direct to get a missing feature implemented (after a quote would have been made by PCS). The immediate reply from PCS: "We don't do paid development to implement new features...". Conclusion: Only they seem to know what is good for us. And thus: bye bye WX and PCS sales for that customer...

All I'm saying again is that you should do your due diligence and choose the right tool for the job.
So I guess we agree ;-)

All the best,

Peter Holemans

von Peter Holemans - am 18.04.2017 08:00
Hi all

This is a very interesting thread for me as I am about to upgrade an unused WB12 to v22 and start to develop web applications.

I've used WD in the past, and have several apps on WM which I want to work with the web apps.

Many of the apps I have in mind are based on loopers, with querying and graphs.

Users will be on phones and tablets as well as PCs.

I want to set it up as SAAS.

Is WB up to this simple kind of thing? Can someone reassure me, or dissuade me?

Thanks

Pete

von Peter Muckle - am 18.04.2017 13:34
Peter
Good response, I can see where your frustration comes from although I mast say that compared to me you are in a parallel universe when it comes to programming.

However I do have to ask if it really that good in MSWorld.

Had a quick look at the .Net Core Entity Framework.
Now of course I do not know any of the products but the first thing it tells me is that it is not compatable with Entity Framework 6.x and goes on to say...
Because of the fundamental changes in EF Core we do not recommend attempting to move an EF6.x application to EF Core unless you have a compelling reason to make the change.

So to use it I assume requires moving development to Visual Studio 2017.

Second page was ASP.NET Core - New Database with Visual Studio 2017.
An example of building MVC application where the code, to me at least, did not seem very intuitive.
I appreciate this is a one off part of the overall application build but even so it did appear quite complex.

At the end of the tutorial were some 18 comments all of which were effectively complaining that for one reason or another they could not get it to work.

I also noted that MS themselves stated in a couple of places that...
If you receive an error stating "an error message" , close and reopen Visual Studio. - Hmmmm sounds familiar - had me smiling.

This is more of a question than a critisism so only answer if you wish to - I am not out to start a war.

Think I will stay with WD, better the devil I know in my case.

von DerekT - am 18.04.2017 15:34
Hi Derek,

Just some points:

Re:
1) Bugs
Nothing is bug free as it is the case with my own software which needs corrections over time.
At least bugs are openly listed and described including their workarounds with any other software development tool vendor I work with apart from PCS.

2) .Net Core and .Net
.Net Core is a complete rewrite of .Net and is targeted to run on multiple platforms (Windows, Linux, OSX, Mobile, Azure, ...)
While doing this rewrite they dropped quite some historical payload from the Windows only .Net runtime and frameworks (e.g. Entity Framework 6.0 you referred to). This explains why .Net Core has no guaranteed backward compatibility with the other historical .Net framework.

It is true that finding your way in all the .Net versions and compatible frameworks can be a headache from time to time, but in general you can find pretty good matrixes on this subject on the net (MSDN).

The general rule is: if you do .Net Core (which has been open sourced but M$ oversees and manages the direction) you don't mix and match that with classical .Net libraries and frameworks as there is no guaranteed backward compatibility.

.Net Core however is the way to move forward on any new development as it is multi platform, heavily developed by M$ and also hooks into Xamarin, Azure, etc...

3) Code intuitivity of .Net Core
Even for me the learning curve has been pretty steep to get it in my fingers. C# itself is easy and often I can do the same with less lines of code in C# than I can in WL.

The hardest part is getting familiar with the 'Convention over Configuration' aspect of using MVC and the entity framework. You really need to name and code elements in a specific way. It is learning the frameworks, really. If you do that, it will work out of the box but it takes a while to familiarize yourself (even with the basics).

Please also note that most of the code that you mentioned in your examples on the web when using these frameworks (Entity Framework, MVC, ...) is generated code by the IDE when implementing a new element. This is called scaffolding in the .Net world. In short it means that all the (low level) stuff that is done for you is (contrary to WX) also accessible as code and that it can be tweaked and customised if required. Something that you do don't have access to in WX (The black box and dead end street in WX you can run into in that case).
Maybe there are some free entity framework tutorial trial videos here if you're interested.

4) In short
I'm not saying .Net Core is the new coding godess now. I'm just saying that it is way less likely that I'll ever arrive in a dead end street because of several reasons:
- A company (M$) that (co-)defines and set the new and future standards themselves
- An unlimited number of resources (blogs, samples, fora, ...) I can tap into
- A humongeous number of external libraries to cover the most exotic needs
- ...

As said WD is a fine and mature solution for basic data driven "Windows Forms"-like development and I surely would recommend it for a lot of those use-cases. Most of my (international) customers however want 'web web web', 'services services services' and 'bolt-on, integrate, mix and match' solutions these days. WD has big limitations in that area, WB is simply not up to that task and WM doesn't meet the PCS marketing promises. The whole (WX) doesn't really allow to do this kind of multi-platform development because the runtime/vm is not aligned up to the level required to do so.

So as long as you're in the 'Windows Forms' type development business, WD still is a good choice and I see no reason to change.

If you're happy, I'm happy !

Cheers,

Peter Holemans

von Peter Holemans - am 18.04.2017 21:00
Hi Al,

I have to disagree with you on this one -- being a non-English speaker I found the sloooooow Southern dialect very easy to understand, much easier than for instance the London Cogney:-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WvIwkL8oLc

Best regards
Ola

von Ola - am 20.04.2017 09:33
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