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WinDev Forum
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vor 5 Monaten, 1 Woche
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Beteiligte Autoren:
Tor-Bjarne, Fabrice Harari, ccc2, André Labuschagné, Steven Sitas, Allard, Donald Montaine, Julio Cesar, GuenterP, Gus Sabina, ... und 5 weitere

Why I abandon Webdev ?

Startbeitrag von ccc2 am 07.06.2017 09:56

There 're alot reasons but the main reason is webdev cannot do this.

This app I create more than a year ago for my customer.
it can run from local/web and connect to mysql database via webservice which I wrote using nodejs

from screenshot you can see , the windows can run in mdi or modal mode








Do you still think I'm making wrong decision to abandon webdev ?

Antworten:

Yes I do...

it's not because YOU cannot write something using WebDev that it's not possible.

If you are stomped by something like that, you clearly wouldn't believe what I managed to write using WebDev, the best example being a replacement for an access application (with the behavior of an access application).

And the best part is that I wrote it originally using WebDev 11, not even our modern versions.

So Yes, I think yo are wrong.

But clearly, that won't change a thing, so good luck using different languages to do different things.

von Fabrice Harari - am 07.06.2017 10:29
Hi ccc,

I converted several of my Windev projects to Webdev, and and abandoned Windev for the following reasons:
- SAAS licensing is straightforward, no illegal copies.
- Easy maintenance: no distribution media necessary, no more update hassle.
- Easy support, by being able to check exactly what a user reports as a problem using live data.
- Applications no longer limited to Windows OS.
Since I never used mdi (I don't like it and I don't need it) in Windev I had no problem creating nearly the same look and feel as the Windev apps.
Moving to Webdev needs a different way of thinking, you have to go with the flow.
You can use PageDisplayDialog for modal window emulation in dynamic Webdev and popups in both dynamic and AWP.
There are several topics on this forum about converting a WD app to WB.

Kind regards,
Piet

von Piet van Zanten - am 07.06.2017 11:54
Hi ,

I really do not get why you would want mdi Windows linke pages in a web app? But smal screen and popping it up to fill full screen can be done in webdev 22. using popup and plane features

And if you can find a library that gives you this behaviour you can include it in webdev 22 and then you can get the functionality.

Version 22 is not limited to anything since you can include anything you want.

regards
Allard

von Allard - am 07.06.2017 11:58
mdi is because the existing program i wrote using windev is also mdi . I made exact same in order to save trouble to train users.


it seems like no one notice the strong point from the screenshot why that webdev cannot do.
pay attention to the browser URL in the screenshot

1. this app is run from c:\ drive not from web server , still able to retrieve/update data via ajax request
2. this is SPA (Single Page Application)

von ccc2 - am 07.06.2017 12:16
How is that difficult to do in webdev?

You can install the 10 user server locally if you want to use the full power of webdev, and if you don't, you can create all that in browser code, execute it locally if you really want to, and call a rest webservice with a simple api/httprequest from the browser code.

As for the single page application, it's of course possible with cells, the planes and everything else.

again, it's not because YOU don't know how to do something in webdev that it's not possible.

von Fabrice Harari - am 07.06.2017 13:10
Hi ccc2,
impressive for a WEB app !!!
What did you use to develop it ?

Steven Sitas
www.alpha360.biz

von Steven Sitas - am 07.06.2017 18:40
Quote
ccc
mdi is because the existing program i wrote using windev is also mdi . I made exact same in order to save trouble to train users.


Hi CCC,

Why don`t you use a product like TSPLUS.NET?

Then you get exactly what you developed in WinDev (on the WEB) without coding a line? :)

Cheers
Tor-Bjarne

von Tor-Bjarne - am 07.06.2017 20:14
TSPLUS.NET looks good....

von Harry W - am 07.06.2017 21:14
Hi All

Please read what Fabrice states. I do totally agree. (Webdev 22 has planes. So a single site app is doable. As cells can have planes so it is verry flexible. )

As Fabrice states if you do not know how to do it ,Then that doesnot mean the it can not be done.

For instance inline editing in a table is not as good as windev. It is difficuylt to realy handle stuff on cell level.
But you can use a looper and get all the control you need incl ajax call backs to the server to load stuff into cells exactly as you want it.
( It might be quite a lot of work but it is still 100% native webdev )
Same with Organizer.

In general one can say . There is a basic 5gl way. Click a control and you are done .

Or a more difficult way ( but a way that gives way more control ) place a control and fill it up by programming. Or do data binding to something that in code has been prepared the data so the control can present that data.

arrays , structures or classes etc.

In version 22 PC soft introduces yet an other way . Using a third party javascript library to display the data.
You prepare the data....Broadcast it to Json or XML and connect it to the framework for display.
This gives us unlimited posibilities!! Of cource it is quite a bit more difficult then the 5gl tooling way.
But believe me it is still a lot easier then any other RAD__ tool I have seen on the market.
( and I have looked a lot to find new tools in the past view years ).

regards

Allard

von Allard - am 07.06.2017 22:44
I'm not sure how you're attempting to validate with these screens how WxDev let you down. I struggled for the first year or so, but now several years into it , I cringe when I see stuff I wrote only a year ago.

I takes a couple of years to really get functional and I have years to go before I would ever claim proficiency.

Here's my app that written in WebDev. I was the sole developer and did most of this in just 7 months.

My only complaint is that the maintenance is a high compared to other software packages, especially when PCS keeps putting more into Windev when web development is better received.

http://www.cennix.com/webdemo.html

von Robert Willis - am 08.06.2017 01:20
First this is not TSPLUS.NET

Second , it seems everyone ignoring the fact that the app run without WEB SERVER . just run the app.html on browser.


my post and screenshot is to show that the technology is possible now , it is no longer speculations of probability , it's fact .

von ccc2 - am 08.06.2017 05:07
Hi again

Quote
ccc2
Second , it seems everyone ignoring the fact that the app run without WEB SERVER . just run the app.html on browser.
my post and screenshot is to show that the technology is possible now , it is no longer speculations of probability , it's fact .


I did see that and already answered you... I can do the same thing easily in webdev...

Just do a STATIC web site, and use the browser site code (still in wlanguage) to call your REST webservice for data access... No server, you just call the local html page...

It seems that YOU don't want to read our answers and see to what extent you are wrong.

Also, it has been possible with webdev since webdev existed, so not only NOW, but 10 years ago.

Best regards

von Fabrice Harari - am 08.06.2017 11:38
Quote
Fabrice Harari
Hi again

Quote
ccc2
Second , it seems everyone ignoring the fact that the app run without WEB SERVER . just run the app.html on browser.
my post and screenshot is to show that the technology is possible now , it is no longer speculations of probability , it's fact .


I did see that and already answered you... I can do the same thing easily in webdev...

Just do a STATIC web site, and use the browser site code (still in wlanguage) to call your REST webservice for data access... No server, you just call the local html page...

It seems that YOU don't want to read our answers and see to what extent you are wrong.

Also, it has been possible with webdev since webdev existed, so not only NOW, but 10 years ago.

Best regards


Hi Fabrice,
I read your post but just to confirm . without installing WAS the web application develop using webdev will still can work , am i right ?

von ccc2 - am 08.06.2017 12:52
the browser side, yes, the server side, of course not....

Which is why I'm talking about developing what is called in webdev a STATIC (ie browser only) site, and using all browser code.

ie the exact equivalent of what you are doing in your site.

best regards

von Fabrice Harari - am 08.06.2017 13:36
Hi CCC2

Depending on what you are thinking of using I would say that you may be making a mistake. Would love to know what you have used for the screen shots you have displayed.

Cheers
Andre

von Andre Labuschagne - am 08.06.2017 13:55
I have a question. I understand the 10 user server in included in the software. Does PCSoft offer a server if you want more than 10 users?? I looked and do not see any information on a server upgrade??

von D Wilson - am 08.06.2017 20:55
Quote
D Wilson
I have a question. I understand the 10 user server in included in the software. Does PCSoft offer a server if you want more than 10 users?? I looked and do not see any information on a server upgrade??


You can buy an unlimited pr server, this is in the price list.

cheers
Tor-Bjarne

von Tor-Bjarne - am 08.06.2017 21:25
Hi,

WEBDEV application server for Windows or Linux is 299,- and offers unlimited connections.
See: http://www.windev.com/pcsoft/prices.php

von GuenterP - am 09.06.2017 04:24
Hi everybody,

I think that CCC2 is right.
You cannot develop a WEBDEV application with the user interface posted by CCC2.

1. Theoretically, you could use cells in a SINGLE WEBDEV page - moving them around, hiding them resizing them etc. - to try to emulate multiple windows. But you would still be working in a SINGLE database context.
Working on MULTIPLE independent contexts means working on different WEBDEV pages and that would be a nightmare to control !!!

2. You can develop STATIC INDEPENDENT websites with WEBDEV, but why?
There are many FREE and BETTER visual IDEs to do this and of course you can always use notepad !!!

3. Allard suggested using WEBDEV v22 to include 3rd party Javascript libraries in your app. This would be an option - if and only if - you could access the database, the variables and the User Interface in the current WEBDEV application server SESSION with these libraries. This unfortunately cannot be done ...
So with the javascript libraries you will have to use some kind of WEBSERVICEs to get your data and so on ...

But -

WEBDEV is a GREAT tool if you see it as a complementary tool to WINDEV.
You can design and implement GREAT Business applications for the Desktop and the WEB which share the Analysis and 99% of your code - in one WX project.

Just my 2 cents

Steven Sitas
www.alpha360.biz

von Steven Sitas - am 09.06.2017 09:21
Hi Steven

Agreed - but I am curious to know how that was done. My guess is it is some sort of RDP solution using html5 and running in a browser.

Would love to know though.

Cheers
Andre

von André Labuschagné - am 09.06.2017 09:56
Hi Andre,
No, I don't think it is based on RDP. Maybe CCC2 can give more info ...
BUT
there are a lot of libraries if you want to do this kind of programming.
take a look here:
http://demos.telerik.com/aspnet-ajax/window/examples/radwindowandmdi/defaultcs.aspx

Regards
Steven Sitas

von Steven Sitas - am 09.06.2017 10:50
Thanks Steven.

von André Labuschagné - am 09.06.2017 10:52
Why you don't tell us how you do this app ?

von Julio Cesar - am 09.06.2017 13:31
Hi,

I see the discussion about the WEB MDI app but I truly don`t understand what the fuzz is about, perhaps I`m a bit slow but:

When I came from clarion I was thinking you are not making a real exe with WinDev as it`s some sort of Run-Code and a framework, same with .NET r-code (I think) running in the .NET Framework. Now I don`t care as long as it gets the job done.

Now, if I was to emulate a MDI Window since my win app looked like that, on the web without a web-server I`d go TSPLUS with my old MDI app and be done within 1/2 a hour,

Personally I`d want my pages to look like web-pages, now - I guess you can do everything with java script in the browser code using restful web-services, OK, what about the time to finish and why is a web server such a bad thing? - It`s just a framework for running web-pages is`n it?

Is this some purist example, all written in notepad, manually carried over to the web-server on a floppy disk or what?

Please explain for a old toddler like me, as I just don`t get it :)

Cheers
Tor-Bjarne

von Tor-Bjarne - am 09.06.2017 19:55
Hi

I couldn't agree more,

what's worse for me is that such a solution combine the worst part of both world:
- complexity of web development
- and STILL the need to install the pages LOCALLY, on each machine, and to update them locally too
- all the while accessing REMOTE DATA, which means that there IS a connection available.

So I have NO IDEA why anyone would want to create such a thing... I know how to do it in webdev, but WHY? WHY?

:-)

von Fabrice Harari - am 12.06.2017 13:27
Actually, to me, this is done with a VERY OLD tool from Clarion called "Application Broker"

http://www.netkeeper.com/download/other/55ab.pdf

The idea behind was to provide a solution for converting Win applications to Web apps, using this application broker. So, same app in windows would in web.

But so far, this look horrible to me,
There are still few links alive from websites using this. Take a look;

http://ftm.transportation.spsd.org/50680001/webout.html

Regards;
Gus

von Gus Sabina - am 12.06.2017 16:55
Hi Gus,

I Purchased the cw app broker :) and the idea was great at that time ~year 2000, but in my personal opinion Softvelocity lacked the funds to make it complete as they do with a lot of great ideas, like for example the .NET Template framework :)

There are also a product today that you can call as the first statement in you code, that works a bit like the app broker, but fails if you use components (or it used to) Thin..something.

Found it!! Thin Net Solutions



Cheers
Tor-Bjarne

von Tor-Bjarne - am 12.06.2017 19:49
Hi All

SV has resurrected the App Broker - the delivery to the browser they have named it H5. It is a quick way to get a desktop running in a browser and very quickly so. The Thin guys do a similar thing. The big problem with these approaches is scalability. There are other issues but it sort of works. It is no match for WebDev or similar approaches. If you want a desktop in a browser look no further than TSPlus.

Cheers
Andre

von André Labuschagné - am 19.06.2017 16:33
Hi Andrè,

Yes - and there`s Nettalk v10 also (an incredible product) where you fast build your app (using OOP, templates and hand code) and your app becomes a internet-server with the only one purpose, that`s running only your application - pure html are shipped to the browser,

I`ve tested this in version 5 and it was dead-fast. Now, try to get somebody at any it-department to let you install a net-talk app.

But if you own your own server is cool.

Personally I`d stay with WebDev :)

Cheers
Tor-Bjarne

von Tor-Bjarne - am 24.06.2017 19:07
Hi Tor-Bjarne

I think that I was one of the earlier adopters of NT. It is an incredible product and Bruce has done wonders with it but in my view it does not rate against WB. I agree with you about staying with WB. Far more mature, flexible and rich with functionality. Also drag and drop and the list goes on. I have actually given Bruce a demo of WB but he disagrees with me entirely on the whole concept. We dropped NT for WB for very many reasons.

Cheers
André

von André Labuschagné - am 25.06.2017 23:52
Xojo has an option for a self hosted app like what was shown in this thread. No dedicated web server (Apache, IIS) required.

von Donald Montaine - am 07.07.2017 01:05
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