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New competition for WinDev?

Startbeitrag von Thomas am 23.05.2011 12:21

http://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/en-us/lightswitch/
MS first attempt to establish a RAD tool on the market

Die 50 interessantesten Antworten:

Not really, not really.

I wanted to see the Videos. First thing is, you have to install Microsoft Silverlight, the M$ proprietary replacement of Adobe Flash.

And it tells me:
Microsoft Silverlight cannot be used in browsers running in 64 bit mode.
You are running on a browser that may not be fully compatible with Microsoft Silverlight. You can still try to install by clicking below or you can refer to the System Requirements for more information.


M$ Silverlight can't work with M$ 64-bit Internet Explorer.

Nice.


von Jimbo - am 23.05.2011 15:14

Hi, no joy. It insists that I install Silverlight for the Videos, no video shown. It says that M$ IE 9 64-bit is probably not compatible with Silverlight. When trying to install Silverlight, it says that exactly the same version of Silverlight is already installed. So, probably I have to switch over to Win7*32 .. so much for basic compatibility of M$ products.

Price. No one knows the price of Lightswitch yet. Prices between 300 US$ and 1000 US$ are mentioned and maybe, there's a price per year, like a subscription ..

No one knows about versions (express, light, professional ..). Products from beta 1 and Beta 2 are incompatible. What will happen to Beta 3 and Beta 4?

Someone brought the idea of 'hosting Lightswitch apps' up. No exe's made?

Still a lot of things in alpha I presume.

Regards, Guenter


von Jimbo - am 23.05.2011 16:34
Thomas,

Downloaded LightSwitch about a week ago and then forgot to try it out. Had a look at the videos that you handily put the link to, and yes, they are very good, I'm looking forward to the final release. I found it slightly ironic that there are close to as many training videos for a product still in beta as there are for each version of Windev that's been going for years :-/

Regards

John

von John - am 23.05.2011 20:33
Hi
As I see it it is a nice tool but if you want to create real functionality it has to be done with visual studio c# or vb.

only verry basis controls are availeble.I think it is more a dbtool like acces for the internet. None programmers kan make nice things and can hire in a professional ( vs programmer ) that makes nice controls for them

However it can run as a webapp and as a normal app. That is really cool. And documentation like video etc is great it really invites one to take a look at it

But if you are talking about a competing programm, take a look at runrev. Runrev has a laguage that is nearly english an with runrev one can make:
webapps
windows apps
linux apps
and even apps for mobile including iphone.

Allard



von Allard - am 23.05.2011 21:47

No competition for WinDev at all!

Hi Thomas,

Lightswitch generates C# code and is - therefore - part of Visual Studio. If you know C# AND SilverLight very well, Lightswitch MAY BE a good idea for you. But: imho, if you know C# and SilverLight very well then you're not a WinDev (or WebDev) programmer anyway. Changing ANYTHING within or adding ANYTHING to a Lightswitch program after the generation run will require you or your programmers to be C# and SilverLight champions. If you can find such an animal on the job market you'll have to pay a bit more than just a handful of dollars.

Next, you will not be able to use Lightswitch alone. As usual with Visual Studio programming, you will need to buy a bunch of third party add-ons and you will have to integrate them into Lightswitch. Which will ask for some C# skills and a good .NET proficiency.

Similar products to Lightswitch are already on the market - example: Ironspeed http://www.ironspeed.com/ If you want to use ironspeed, just go ahead. It's the same as to most other RAD generated application. Generation takes a blink, changes take forever.

Others aren't that nice in their comments: http://visualstudiomagazine.com/blogs/redmond-review/2010/08/lightswitch-defends-productivity.aspx and please, READ the comments down the page ...

Compare that all to WinDev .....

Regards, Guenter



von Jimbo - am 24.05.2011 03:24
Quote
Thomas
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/dseven/archive/2011/03/08/visual-studio-lightswitch-feature-matrix.aspx

As I understand the matrix is very flexible lightswitch from Visual Studio Pro.
Lightswitch supports desktop and internet. And Visual Basic too.


Hey, you looked into the wrong column if we're talking about Lightswitch. You have to observe column 1. The right column with the many 'Yes's is for Visual Studio in general - not for Lightswitch! Oh yes, you can make an ASP.NET application with Visual Studio - but there's no way to use Lightswitch for that. Regards, Guenter


von Jimbo - am 24.05.2011 14:51

Silverswitch is good for beginner as it's ,for sure, a newbie product while
WXs have been around for more than a decade.

But silverswitch can't run on Linux, can it?

For comparison, we should pay more attention to the stability issue and
all-in-one functionalities of such.

All I can see, products like powerbuilder, progress and other famous 4gl/5gl
tools are those past tense of their glorious and booming days and nothing much
left that we're talking about such now but WXs are still heading up.

But I suggest pcsoft should provide more video trainings, especially for WB,
as well as Silverswitch's.

King


von King - am 24.05.2011 15:45
Ummm....do you mean LightSwitch? As for running on Linux, I'm not sure that WD runs that great on it and although Linux may be ok for server use, I think that most developers enjoy programming on Windows more, (although it's horses for courses, I personally can't stand Linux). I think Visual Studio is probably still heading upwards though, I've heard tell it's quite popular ;-)

The best thing that PCSoft can do is, as I've said before, yawn, is to concentrate on being able to interact FULLY with established standards out in the real world and to provide some proper documentation/videos for people to use. If it wasn't for Guenter's excellent forum that we use today I think most of us would be up s**t creek without a paddle. Forget all this 999996 new features stuff and concentrate on just giving powerful and meaningful updates that provide intergration- (just 9 or 10 would do !) and kill the bugs in the existing programs! Provide a LST for people that speak English would be a good start too !

Rant over :-)


von John - am 24.05.2011 16:10
Günter,

-I mean in the first column of the LS Website Visual Basic and Visual C # is supported

"LS applications are flexible enough to support extensions for templates, data sources, shells, themes, business data types and custom controls. Get extensions from component vendors or develop them yourself using Visual Studio Professional, Premium or Ultimate"
LS I would only use in connection with VS Pro. Even if I had the full flexibility. In the VS Pro with MSDN, LS is automatically included.
No more campaigning for LS. I'll be watching LS!

John,

just my opinion!

Regards

Thomas

von Thomas - am 24.05.2011 20:14
King,

Yes, I do actually think that the WinDev product I use most, Mobile, is quite good. It looks good and has some good features on, better in a lot of cases than what I could get with VS only. However, it also has some 'features' that drive me crazy, like the 'SIPVisible' command that can work fine 100 times and then suddenly create an error message!! Eh? Or how commented out code can still be ran, even though I've saved the project or how queries that are linked for example to a list box suddenly stop being recognised at run time even though nothing has changed and I've deleted the .cpl folders. But then two days later will start working again.....I could go on and on. It's these things that I want fixed, not 100000's of new features!! Because here's the sad fact......what happens is I give up trying to code around these problems after having wasted 5 hours pratting around, load up VS and code the whole thing that works in 30 minutes ! Now that really is 10x faster ! But I'd love to code it in WinDev, it does me no favours coding 80% in WinDev and then having to use VS for the other 20%........give us a realible product with decent examples (that work) and documentation / videos. A programming PDF that's well overdue, (and not much help to be honest), and about 12 videos is not what I'd call making an effort !

Thomas,

No , I agree , I'm going to keep an eye on it , of course it is handy that I too subscribe to the MSDN !

Regards

John

von John - am 24.05.2011 20:35
John, oh how you're right!

the new hammer is in the Windev 16 books, some new features not described. The Palm features were disabled without warning. I had to remove it completely from my code (I did not want to stay with Windev 15). Hours of work for nothing. And so on.
If I were not in the final phase, I would switch to VS Pro. Once I'm done I'm writing the new version of VS Pro. Except PCSOFT is finally going and presents a stable WINDEV 17 :-)

The conditions would agree: The basis for WINDEV is Visual Studio:-)


von Thomas - am 24.05.2011 21:27
Can anyone tell me what else is the best (All-in-one) app so far tool for building windows/mobile/webs?

Let's forget cross-platform issue, just stick to Windows.

As far as I know, being used VS for more than 2 decades, still using it occasionally,
but the deliverable is primitive or I've to buy 3rd party component to complete
the project for my clients then.

King


von King - am 27.05.2011 18:49
Thomas

One thing bothers me quite much is the versioning problem.
WX is downward compatible and not the other way round
meaning that if my client has a WB app server for V12 and now
I'm running WB16 and I can't deploy WB16 apps on WB12 app server.

Worse that all, my client won't pay me for upgrading the server as
he already paid for it and asking me why and what's the benefit!!!

King





von King - am 28.05.2011 17:45
Thomas,

I've a similar problem with WD Mobile, in that I've got two apps I need to run on a client's mobile engineer base, all with HD2's. Trouble is, one app is in v14 and one in v15 which means I have to have both versions of the framework on the device.
Why not convert the v14 app to v15, you might ask? The reason being is that the app contains a huge amount of web services, and whenever I add or modify the existing services, WinDev really annoyingly decides to forget that the services exist at all, showing errors for every defined web service and to rectify I have to re-import all the services again, changing any code I've modified, which can run into hours of work and could potentially muck up the whole app, so I'd rather not go through the pain of that.

King:

I've had a lot of joy using Resco third party components. Good quality with lots of examples and docs. And for Desktop/Web I've found DevExpress components to be very good. They can be a bit complicated at first, but are VERY powerful and they've also got lots of examples and videos.

von John - am 28.05.2011 21:07
Don't get me wrong people. I love windev and have been using it for about 5 or 6 years now. But if I had to do this project over I would take a really hard look at Alpha 5. Their desktop database app are really easy but their web tool is totally awesome. You end up with and app that will run on a desktop or as a web app with virtually do changes. And development time is quite a bit faster than windev. But I am to old and to tired to transfer my windev project over to alpha. There could be draw backs but I haven't read of any. I am very happy with WinDev except for all of it's quirks and work arounds I have had to do. I have not done a complete project with Alpha 5 so I could be way off base. But from the little time I have had to play around with it, it is really awesome. And it cost a heck of a lot less to boot.

John

von John Marrone - am 29.05.2011 15:42
Re Alpha 5,

I was impressed with the dev side of things, did look very good. However, something I didn't like, and this applies to any dev package that does it, is where to build web apps you have to buy a license for EACH server you want to run a web site on. At around £400 a time that's quite a costly way to develop web apps ! Strangely, their run-time option is just a one off payment for unlimited PCs and users, but again, it is quite annoying as really it's just a another way for them to get money off you, unless the only apps you create are only going to be used by you.

Why do software companies insist on doing this? I know VS has it's critics, but when I build an app in that I don't have to worry about any further license costs. Even WinDev allows you to do this, (I'm not sure about WebDev, do you have to buy a license for each deployment server, I've never used it?).

Regards

John

von John - am 29.05.2011 16:36

Once I did an extensive test of Alpha 5. Just to see what's in it. My conclusion: Alpha 5 is for amateurs but not for real programmers. I found heaps of problems without digging deeper into it. Errors over errors. Just similar to Dr. Explain. Qualitity, quality .. Sure, WinDev RAD has to be tweaked and understood thoroughly until an error-free program comes out. But Alpha 5 was hopeless. Just my 2 cents. Guenter


von Jimbo - am 29.05.2011 17:03
Quote
Thomas
Guenter, you're right.
I tested Alpha 5 a few years ago and found it is even less flexible than Windev. It is more of an "MS Access replacement"


MS Access has one advantage over Alpha 5: it works as advertised.

WinDev is very flexible ! It is fast enough for POS software on slow hardware, you can solve lots of hardware oriented jobs like opening / using serial and parallel ports, doing FTP and many 'exotic' tasks more. Try that with any other of those 4GLs. Btw, many of the so-called 'errors' of WinDev aren't WinDev-errors at all, they are programmer-errors. Admitted, there is a bunch of quite harsh real problems in WinDev. The most worrying part is not to know about a schedule of fixes. Mostly - not always - there are workarounds.
Regards, Guenter


von Jimbo - am 30.05.2011 05:26
Quote
Thomas
Hi Günter,

"many of the so-called 'errors' of WinDev aren't WinDev-errors at all, they are programmer-errors".
That's what I try to explain all the time. Sloppy programming work which could improve.
The management should give its programmers time to carry out a fix.

Even MS does not get out every year a new VS Relase


Regards

Thomas


Hi Thomas, definitely, you got me wrong! I said that in many cases (not all, of course) WinDev itself is not the faulty part but the users of WinDev. In bad Russian: nix maschina kaputt, maschinista kaputt ! And yes, there are quite a few WinDev problems too and we're waiting much too long for fixes. That's another story. Regards, Guenter


von Jimbo - am 31.05.2011 09:30
Hi Guenter,

Looking through some of the topics on the forum lately, it would appear that there are a lot of problems with WinDev 16. Considering it's meant to be tested through the French users having it first, it's a bit concerning. It looks like PCSoft are more and more interested in sticking a new number after the 'V' and getting the cash in rather than testing the new features they are implementing and testing how well they sit with older versions, let alone fixing the old bugs that have been knocking around for ages.....

Regards

John

von John - am 02.06.2011 18:23
Quote
Thomas
Hi John,
exactly!
I'm worried that the English PCSOFT Windev version is no longer distribute.
It would be good if PCSOFT would release a statement in his own forum on the future of WINDEV.

Regards


Thomas


Hey Thomas, slow down, this is complete bullshit! Look at the release dates of the last update to v16 and compare at the version numbers too. You'll see that v16/US has a more recent version number than v16/FR. Plus, look at: http://gambas.sourceforge.net/en/main.html and read 'At the beginning ...' to cool down your VS enthusiasm a bit. Guenter



von Jimbo - am 02.06.2011 19:59
Quote
Thomas
Guenter, you're right.
I tested Alpha 5 a few years ago and found it is even less flexible than Windev. It is more of an "MS Access replacement"


Guenter I agree. I think windev is a great programm.ftp email phone are just a view things you can implement . Scripting is fantastic and the IDE is great. Windev is the best thing that happend to me in my short programming live. With windev I can make apps that I could not make with other programms. Incredible features out of the box, like the push installer are just fantastic!!


I recently took a look at visual webdeveloper for making websites and am using vb-net for scripting, onley because I am a bit short in funds. It is free and I donnot have to buy an application server.

For the scripting I have read two vb books the last 3 days to get the hack of it. Since I have no programming background and lunrned moast of it by using windev I see why windev is so great.

I think the future of programming is more webbased so if funds are better i will problebly go with webdev . I like the 10x faster For now The web for me is goning to be visual webdeveloper. The nollage of vb.net is a good addition to my skills and job uppertunities are better

I think pc soft is dedicated to the english users , As I red on this forum they even did the major part of a cource in Lasvegas.

Allard

von Allard - am 03.06.2011 03:08
Yes, i have attended some demos of outsystems.
I do not know what is your case, but if you are developing commercial applications (packages) outsystem doesn't seem a good solution.
If in your case the normal is to develop custom applications so it pays to spend some time evaluating OutSystems.
In any case test thier open source applications in (http://www.outsystems.com/apps/) just to see some samples or check thier event site (http://www.outsystems.com/NextStep/Presentations.aspx?resource=) to see some presentations and videos.

PS: take some time to see the CodeJam video in the presentations to see the resources and time spent to make the open source apps (do not forget that who developed the applications also developed the development environment;)).

von Paulo Oliveira - am 29.06.2011 14:58
Quote
John
Hi Guenter,

Looking through some of the topics on the forum lately, it would appear that there are a lot of problems with WinDev 16. Considering it's meant to be tested through the French users having it first, it's a bit concerning. It looks like PCSoft are more and more interested in sticking a new number after the 'V' and getting the cash in rather than testing the new features they are implementing and testing how well they sit with older versions, let alone fixing the old bugs that have been knocking around for ages.....

Regards

John


don't forget the limitation of the features they implemented . PCsoft seem to has habit of roll out half bake cake then hope no one notice and finish it in next version release .

until now I still think clarion is the best (the template/compiler is solid while the IDE is suck). I know clarion is out of date but the application generated by clarion is very stable compare to windev .
I have application that I used clarion 5 to build a decade ago , the application still running on win7 without any problem .








von CCC - am 29.06.2011 15:16
Hi,

when looking at their homepage and one example video, sorry, I did not understand much.
Every demo video by pcsoft, even if spoken in French, explains much more to me.
Prices on a monthly base :mad:
Serious? (just for fun) Windev says 10 times faster, ok a nice advertisement.
Outsystem says 10.8 times faster. How did they get this value :confused:
For me as an engineer this 3 digit precision is really nonsens.

my conclusion: I'll stay with Windev :-)

Erik

von Erik Schwarz - am 29.06.2011 16:48
Quote
CCC
Quote
John
Hi Guenter,

Looking through some of the topics on the forum lately, it would appear that there are a lot of problems with WinDev 16. Considering it's meant to be tested through the French users having it first, it's a bit concerning. It looks like PCSoft are more and more interested in sticking a new number after the 'V' and getting the cash in rather than testing the new features they are implementing and testing how well they sit with older versions, let alone fixing the old bugs that have been knocking around for ages.....

Regards

John


don't forget the limitation of the features they implemented . PCsoft seem to has habit of roll out half bake cake then hope no one notice and finish it in next version release .

until now I still think clarion is the best (the template/compiler is solid while the IDE is suck). I know clarion is out of date but the application generated by clarion is very stable compare to windev .
I have application that I used clarion 5 to build a decade ago , the application still running on win7 without any problem .


Whatever you tell, one's for sure: compiled WinDev applications are rock solid and stable.


von Jimbo - am 29.06.2011 17:03
I would say solid - not Rock solid, I'm afraid.

Problem is: is it WD or some other thing causing the error

i.e. Frequently use of CloneControl() causes memory leaks, ending up in black controls (controls not redrawn anymore) - must be WD

There's a thread in this forum about the HFCS crashing for whatever reason. PCsoft issue, because it should not crash but throw an error.

Or this on a line which runs fine for many times, but suddenly fails. Could be Microsoft





von Arie - am 30.06.2011 09:06
Sorry, Igor: NO

1 - 4D asks for royalties for runtimes and these don't come cheap. You can't distribute a 50,- Euro program with 4D, you can't distribute freeware.

2 - 4D is weak on low-level-functions, like most other 4GLs. Try to open and manipulate a serial port or a parallel port. WinDev offers lots of low-level functions which you won't find in other 4GLs.

Regards, Guenter


von Jimbo - am 30.06.2011 10:46
Hello Igor

Just for curiosity, i have downloaded 4D software..
Yes, it seems to nice, but it doesn't has the same Windev features.

I don't understand why some Wd programmers are speaking (not with good words) about Windev.
I don't agree in part with your considerations.
I have been programming for about 30 years, starting with a Cobol background and, believe me, Windev is my last (and best) choice. And i can add, if Windev was available 25 years ago, i should be a happiest man...
So, be patient...Our skill help us to find some workaround when we have some difficults, but this is OUR experience...If sometime Wd has a little bug, i understand the frustation of some WD users, but we can't obtain ALL at the same time.
I can confirm there aren't software for development that haven't bugs. M$ teach!!

Just a little consideration.....

Gianni

von Gianni Spano - am 30.06.2011 11:00
Hello!

Just for clarification, I love windev and many developing it but it certainly is closely monitoring and other development tools.
(Each of these development tools is in some ways better than others, but I agree, windev was able to cover with some minor flaws, most of the things needed for the development of high-quality applications).

P.S. I am the user of windev since version 5.5. As well as all versions webdev and windev mobile ...

Quote
Gianni Spano
Hello Igor

Just for curiosity, i have downloaded 4D software..
Yes, it seems to nice, but it doesn't has the same Windev features.

I don't understand why some Wd programmers are speaking (not with good words) about Windev.
I don't agree in part with your considerations.
I have been programming for about 30 years, starting with a Cobol background and, believe me, Windev is my last (and best) choice. And i can add, if Windev was available 25 years ago, i should be a happiest man...
So, be patient...Our skill help us to find some workaround when we have some difficults, but this is OUR experience...If sometime Wd has a little bug, i understand the frustation of some WD users, but we can't obtain ALL at the same time.
I can confirm there aren't software for development that haven't bugs. M$ teach!!

Just a little consideration.....

Gianni


von Igor Pobi - am 30.06.2011 14:58
I know of 4D software. Many years ago I almost started out as a supporter. Seriously meant, I live 15 kilometers from the headquarters. 4D can not compare with Windev, far too inflexible.
I know Windev since version 5.5. I then moved from Clarion. Clarion was a good product, unfortunately, the developers have missed the evolution of the global market. Windev was for me at the time the rescue. Up to version 10 from then on things went downhill. It was a bad decision on my part, since my standard software must compete with the market leaders. For high-quality software is not just 10 times faster, but quality, "without error" is all.
If WINDEV not improved much, the next project with MS VS and third-party products is realized.


von Thomas - am 30.06.2011 20:03
Hi, good luck with VS! Takes three times longer for coding (= 1 year becomes 3 years), needs higher paid personell (cheap guys right out of school / university are a fata morgana in this respect) and will give you headaches over lots of much more complex errors. Getting your staff up to date will take quite a few courses each year and time and reading everything about VS will eat up your time and the time of your programmers.

There's no doubt, you can make high quality products with WinDev - it depends on you, not on the tool you're using! If you cannot make quality products with WinDev, you will not be able to make them with VS or any other programming tool. It's a deadly fault to think that quality comes out of a box, it's the result of the developer's work! Analyzing, prototyping, planning, documenting, writing the help, lots of testing and a little coding will make quality. Carefully read Frederick P. Brooks book 'the mythical man month' and try to understand. Brooks made the IBM /360 series work and his book is quite aged (1982) but some thruths don't fade away with time.

Regards, Guenter






von Jimbo - am 01.07.2011 06:04
Hi Guenter,

I agree with Thomas. Windev 9 was the best Windev version EVER.

I also agree with you to some extend. If you want to build stable applications you had better stay away from new features. These are counterproductive.

An example:

Instead of the good old table with form I decided to switch to a table with containers. From there my time is going through the drain. It appears that combo boxes in a container column don't work (some do and some don't) After many hours I give up and convert the table to a looper. Well the layout is completely messed up, but ok, the controls are all there. Try to drag them to the right position. The controls that were in a container appear to be locked in an invisible and unaccessible container. After a while I give up and start a new looper from scratch. After finishing the looper combo boxes (again) based on a query do not display properly.
Finally I'm back to the good old table with form approach.

So much time wasted, but I still end up with a stable and working application.

Regards,
Piet

von Piet van Zanten - am 01.07.2011 07:43

Hi Piet, yes, some new features in Wx products can cause lots of headaches. One has to decide about how much time (and how much struggle with Tech Support) one wants to invest before reaching a solution or giving it up.

On the other hand, many new features work just fine right out of the box. Not all new controls or features are broken ..

Anyway, new features need testing. I have hundreds of small test-projects to prove function / non-function of certain features, controls, code etc.

In some cases I exchange lots of mails with Tech Support and I do insist on a fix - sometimes we even get one. Example: Making a Setup and WDSetup.

Sometimes we don't get a fix, examples are WeekNumber(..) and USBFind(..) or TableInputSearch(..) which doesn't fully work since version 9 *grin*. In order to get fixes and save others from investing their precious time, don't hesitate to make annotations to online Help system and mention those annotations in the forum. This is very important! The visibility of annotations probably guarantees for some 'heads up!' at PCS HQ.

Kind regards, Guenter


von Jimbo - am 01.07.2011 08:30
Oh Guenter, why you are getting personal?
You know very well, it's not about the programming skills in WINDEV, but for the many big bugs that were even after many years of PCSOFT NOT fixed! It is not a personal issue but a purely technical! Why I am now stuck with WINDEV? Because I still hope that fixes PCSOFT his big bugs at last!

It is clear to me after years of WINDEV found that PCSOFT sloppy programming (more runs after the sexy girls) and not the programmer. I do not see one that I have to constantly tinker to get a stable program. This is a hundred times slower than VS with third-party tools.
For a year I play in parallel with VS without third-party and getting good results already.

But it is already clear that you must write it because you WINDEV sell, and want to get good discounts from PCSOFT.


von Thomas - am 01.07.2011 09:06
Quote
Xavier
Hey Thomas,

it seems very interesting to me to have a look at that "big" bugs list.
Do you have such list? Many developer could save a lot of time when knowing those bugs.

Regards,
Xavier


Hi Xavier, this forum has a few parts, one of them is a 'bug list'. Navigate to it by using the combo in this forum's header and select the last forum in the combo list.
Kind regards, Guenter


von Jimbo - am 01.07.2011 11:35
Xavier, I have reason so many bugs because I WINDEV to exploiting to border.

By that I mean NOT a normal programming language but I use very extensively the "addons with the internal functions (5GL)" by WINDEV. Unfortunately, these useful features(only reason I bought WINDEV!). implemented only sloppy and have a lot of bugs. Thus I have programmed a different path and the speed advantage is lost. On the contrary, do I need more time!

Someone who WINDEV basis "only" used with tables and forms, only little notice of the error.


von Thomas - am 01.07.2011 16:11
Hi Thomas,

if you can prove an error then please,

- notify PC Soft Tech Support
- put the detailed description of the error into the 'bugs' forum
- if you have a test project, please put a link to that project into the forum

with crying 'error' alone you just make a bad (inproductive!) atmosphere but nothing will change. Please, report your problems! Maybe, these errors can be solved here ..

Regards, Guenter


von Jimbo - am 01.07.2011 16:17
Guenter, what I do well all the time? I cry because the errors are not fixed.
e.g. Please read this note
(A Note! A fatal error was to "note" and not explained by dissolved):

http://doc.windev.com/en-US/?1000011001
"When creating an appointment with reminder in Outlook, the reminder is immediately displayed regardless of the appointment date"
Thus an important function is now a joke

When I cry I've tried everything. And as you can see I post a little, because I fix the error itself
So for me this discussion is finished. My decision has been made.

von Thomas - am 01.07.2011 18:39
Tomas at some extend I agree with you

I used a table with a table break. Cool 5gl feature. Looks nice , worked fine. Well when doing a test with lots of data it got verry slow.
It was all because I programmed the tablebreak to collapsed ( intead of expanded witch is the default)

Took me quite some time to find that out. Changed the window used a tree control and a seperate table. Wow even with massive amout of data it was lightnong vast.

So I guess you have to know what to use for what purpose. If you want a table break because you want to strucutre a table with lots of data don't. Instead use a tree and a table or the tabletreeview control

I wanted to use a java applet on a webpage. It all works fine as long as you donnot want to connect to a database. It works when connecting to a mail server or ftp server but it isnot able to connect to a database. If you try it it generates an applet that needs some dll's and files to be on the desktop of the user who wants to use the applet !!!! Hello of cource this is not acceptible I want to use an applet so I can display it on a website so website users can use it without downloading any software.
I asked pc soft if I was doning something wrong and I asked it it where at all possible. I got no answer

I gess they left out this feature for else you could make a webapp and for webdevelopment they want to sell webdev. Ok so be it . But it would be nice if they put it in the help file so i didnot spend several days to try to get it to work!!



I must say all things considered I will stay with windev. It has bugs and it sometimes isnot 10 times faster but I can make great software with it.. If it works it runs great on the users computer.

von Allard - am 01.07.2011 19:00
Hi,

In a nutshell:

PCSoft sell a new version of Windev each year. Each year promises XXX new features. Some work as they should and some don't. The ones that don't create lots of headaches and people get annoyed and PCSoft *may* fix some of them, although these fixes are often only given it would appear to the individuals who have the willpower to spend several weeks going over it with Tech Support. The ones that don't get fixed people either give up or try something like VS and sometimes a third party tool. Some users find that this actually is faster than WinDev and carry on using. Because of this, some users carry on using WinDev to support existing clients whilst using VS & third party tools to create programs for new clients. In the meantime PCSoft give grandiose announcements such as 'support for Windows Phone 7' , whilst actually only giving about 4 controls, all of which are pretty useless in a business environment or half finished controls such as the Scheduler control. In all cases expect error messages to be in French.
In a business environment , tell your potential clients you are using WinDev, wait for them to say, 'what?', and then watch your potential client go to a company using .NET.
In the meantime, lose any programmers using WinDev to another software company using .NET and then have fun and games trying to recruit anyone who actually has using WinDev, whilst your competitors surge ahead having recruited all those .NET developers out there.

Yep, I think that's about it!

Regards
John


von John - am 02.07.2011 00:07
Hello,

I think its about time we ended this thread. The rants are getting out of hand. We are all mature adults who know how to evaluate things. Most of us did not even start with Windev, but chose it because we at that time had problems with whatever we were using and it turned out to have the best mix of features and options we could find. The truth is, every product has its pluses and minuses and we are at all times re-evaluating the choices we have made in the past as well as new choices we have to make now and in the future. If you are not satisfied with Windev in any way or you were in the past but would like to try something new, please do so.

We don't need your complaints to decide what we are going to do. This is a support forum so lets leave it at that. Every software mentioned here; VS, Alpha 5, 4D, Arev, Clarion etc all have their pros and cons, adherents and detractors. Its up to us individually to determine what we will use.

In short, if you don't like Windev, leave. You do not need our approval to leave, neither do we need your consent to stay with windev.

Everyone decides his own future. "Sufficient unto the day, the evils of it thereof".

regards

issah

von issah - am 02.07.2011 13:09
Issah,

I don't believe anyone is 'ranting', the topic of the thread was about competition for WinDev and the reasons why such competition may or may not be sucessful. In such a conversation the reasons why such competition may be sucessful may cause some people, such as myself as well as others here, to verbalise on the causes of such. Some of these causes can be due to failings on the part of PCSoft and, again, some people may feel that there isn't a case to answer for that and some may do.

I can't see anyone here saying that they are going to stop using WinDev outright or jump ship to another platform immediately. Indeed, I'm sure many people who have contributed to this thread are like myself, in that they own several versions of WinDev, have produced robust products with it, but are annoyed with the seemingly poor quality control that PCSoft excercise with each new update and their failings to tackle bugs that have been knocking around for ages. I'll continue to use WinDev for the foreseeable future, in fact I've just bought V16 Mobile, as I have clients who are using V14 and V15, but that doesn't stop me from being critical about the product, considering I've paid my hard earned money out for it I'd say I have every right!

Nor can I see anyone telling anyone to stop using WinDev? I'm not sure where you got that from? And yes, I do have the right to complain if I feel that the product isn't meeting the standard that has been advertised. If you don't like that, then don't read my posts, no one is making you. This IS a support forum, but I've always thought of it to be a place where general views can be aired too, for the good or bad of WinDev, especially considering the lack of other places on the web to discuss PCSoft products. If the product cannot stand up to some critiscism then something is very wrong indeed !

Ummm....your quote seems very bizarre ! Not quite sure where that was going.....

von John - am 02.07.2011 13:36
Issah, are you serious?

Stop using it if you don't like it? I wish it was that easy: you just transfer the work you have done so far to another development environment and go on... Would't that be nice, and wouldn't that bring some real pressure on PCSoft's production department to work as hard as their marketing department:-)

The main problem with Windev is that their marketing department is 10 times faster and "more productive" than their production department. And I have blue eyes. In practice, PCSoft lies 10 times faster than most software producers I have seen so far:sneg:. Therefore I find myself many times banging my head against a brick wall while trying to use some of their fancy bells and whistles (where is the "banging my head to a wall" smiley:confused:?). When the bump in my forehead is big enough, I stop and skip the feature or bypass the problem somehow. This slows the development time so badly down that I do not have the time to do their alpha-testing for them.

I like the parts of Windev that work as advertized and documented, and at the same time I look down at PCSoft, because, simply put, they are the biggest liars and cheaters among any suppliers I have met so far.

The two "killer" features that made me "upgrade" to 16 were the scheduler control and the block editing possibility in code editor. Both are crappy. And the "improved" possibility to import web services; haven't really dug into that yet, but I am afraid of the worst...

Perhaps a little bit of honesty would do their marketing manager good and earn some respect for their coders? And perhaps some more good, working code samples in the help -- but maybe that is too much asked for? Quite too often there is none!

And about introducing and discussing about the competition: I think it's good. For us windevers the best place to do that is this forum. It may help somebody who is still not buried too deep in Windev. I found Windev in a similar discussion in Clarion for Windows forum a long time ago, and now I am stuck with it and will finish my project with it no matter what. I know I can do it, but it takes more than 10 times more time than with my previous, bug-free tool.

And we do have the right to criticize it whenever we feel like it, at least if we have paid for it. I have the understanding that is not a church and PCSoft very obviously is not a god.

best regards
Ola

von Ola - am 04.07.2011 12:29
Hello John & Ola,

I am sorry that you feel I am trying to deny you your right to free expression, far from it, and besides, its not in my power to do so.

A quick glance at the topic for this thread reads, "New competition for WinDev?" and it was great and technically relevant to know what new things were coming up, after all almost all of us used other products before using Windev and many are still using multiple products, depending on the job etc..

After a while however, this thread in my opinion, started getting too personal and off topic. Some of the threads would start with phrases like "Just for clarification, I love windev...", as if you had to pledge allegiance before making a statement.

I try and read every posting and help out to the best of my ability when I can (and that goes for most of us); and even though other specialized fora exist, all postings tend to come here to the Windev forum. (Guenter does not enforce a strict rule of WB or WM postings going to their respective forums - maybe he should) So it would be very difficult to decide not to read your posts (it would also be very unwise of me). I am not some eastern mystic, but it just feels like we shed too much negative energy, bad karma, " negative feng shui", bad vibes, call it what you like. Instead of working to find solutions and work a rounds.

What does bad karma have to do with "re: new competition for windev?", nothing which shows just how far we have strayed. Let there be peace man!!![[3]]

Guenter, give us a "Windev Frustrations Forum" so we have a place to vent our spleen.

Thanks and regards

issah


von issah - am 05.07.2011 00:48
+ 1 to this also.

This would allow gripes about PCsoft to be separated from technical assistance offered here.

It would also allow prospective users (& PCsoft?) to get a concise feeling for the current state of WD/WB software and the satisfaction (or lack thereof) of english speaking customers. Perhaps it might also encourage PCsoft to fix some of the more major problems that users report there, if they are more glaringly visible.

I like WD/WB, but lobbying for important fixes can only be a good thing.

Michael

von Michael Q - am 05.07.2011 11:38
Quote
StanleyBarnett
Now that Xamarin is now Micrsoft and integrated into Visual Studio, PC Soft now has solid serious competition...
Stanley


No, it has not. With WINDEV Mobile (990,- Euro list price) alone you can develop not only for iOS and Android but for Windows CE, Windows 10 Mobile, Windows UWP applications too, you can use a bunch of different database systems at no additional cost at all.

Cheapest version of Visual Studio is 641,- Euro, another 641,- buys a server for teamwork but integrating two developers into teamwork is another 641,- for each developer. Visual Studio Enterprise is 3300,- Euro. PC Soft includes SCM at no extra cost. MS SQL Server 2016 Standard Edition is 4090,- Euro, HFSQL (for Windows and Linux servers!) is free and can be distributed at no extra cost! MS doesn't offer upgrade prices - you have to pay full price if you want to upgrade to the next version.

Btw, WINDEV develops for LINUX too, the WEBDEV deployment server runs on Windows and Linux.

Wx products contain lots of add-ons out of the box, if you need additional functionality for VS you have to buy controls and supporting programs from 3rd parties which gives you the well knownproblems with different versions.

von GuenterP - am 23.11.2016 06:58
Hi Guenter,

Quote

No, it has not. With WINDEV Mobile (990,- Euro list price) alone you can develop not only for iOS and Android but for Windows CE, Windows 10 Mobile, Windows UWP applications too,

With Visual Studion 2015 Community Edition, the cost is FREE allowing you to build any all the listed apps. The only limiting factor is it does not support Microsoft's Team Foundation Server. SCM is also supported via other means, and again at zero cost.


Quote

you can use a bunch of different database systems at no additional cost at all.

Wonder why I spent $$$ for PCSoft's MSSQL native driver? So it looks like there is a cost for PCSoft here. SQL Server is also available for FREE (express edition) that supports databases in production up to 10gb. If you need larger, then standard is next and supports sizes the same as the enterprise.

You surely are not suggesting that HFSQL is as mature, stable, robust and feature rich as SQL Server are you? I've read much here on this forum where HFSQL is lacking many of SQL Server's features.

Quote

Cheapest version of Visual Studio is 641,- Euro, another 641,- buys a server for teamwork but integrating two developers into teamwork is another 641,- for each developer. Visual Studio Enterprise is 3300,- Euro. PC Soft includes SCM at no extra cost. MS SQL Server 2016 Standard Edition is 4090,- Euro, HFSQL (for Windows and Linux servers!) is free and can be distributed at no extra cost!

Wrong again, Community Edition of Visual Studio 2015 is feature rich including Xamarin integrated into it all for FREE. You are not comparing apples to apples when comparing enterprise versions of Microsoft's products to PC Soft's lineup. This forum has lots to say about that. Reported bugs not getting fixed is just one that comes to mind.


Quote

MS doesn't offer upgrade prices - you have to pay full price if you want to upgrade to the next version.

As far as I know, upgrades are not free with PCSoft, whereas I have paid nothing to Microsoft for their SQL and Visual Studio products including Xamarin. To me, PCSoft is much more expensive, but also I'm not concerned with the costs. I need productivity, and PCSoft is falling short to us English speaking developers... Where is the English support, training, conferences, seminars and etc. The group that has taken over in the USA is not putting out anything either, no conferences, meetings, seminars, and only a couple of videos. Heck, I read that PCSOFT has sold 10000 copies to US developers. If that was true, then PCSoft would be well known. EVERY developer I've talked with over the past year since spending 3400.00usd with PCSoft, NONE has ever heard of it. Google has little to say regarding PCSoft's products in the USA.


Quote

Wx products contain lots of add-ons out of the box, if you need additional functionality for VS you have to buy controls and supporting programs from 3rd parties which gives you the well known problems with different versions.

Having this super large add-on 3rd party eco-system is where Visual Studio really shines over PCSoft simply because they lack 3rd party vendor support. PCSoft is too proprietary in this area which has discouraged the 3rd party marketplace.


For me, all I want is...
1. a stable rock solid modern IDE for developing apps for today's world that is stable, works as advertised with lots of support via books, videos, seminars, conferences, and training camps,
2. large eco-system, like 3rd party vendors that extends the core functionality, and training similar to Pluralsight and Lynda to name a few...
3. widely accepted tools and practices,
4. timely bug fixes and fully baked solutions,
5. single code base for developing mobile (ios, android, winCE, universal),
6. ability to develop and deploy with no costs, and when it scales beyond what free buys us, then we can pay to play...

As it stands now I have a $3400 door stop named PCSoft, that I would really like to use, but where the paradigm is so different from Microsoft's and literally no support here in the US, it was time to take a hard look at Xamarin when it became part of Microsoft completely as open source back in March.

Anyway, enough for now, and thanks for your response,
Stanley

von StanleyBarnett - am 24.11.2016 03:41
Quote
StanleyBarnett
Quote

Wx products contain lots of add-ons out of the box, if you need additional functionality for VS you have to buy controls and supporting programs from 3rd parties which gives you the well known problems with different versions.

Having this super large add-on 3rd party eco-system is where Visual Studio really shines over PCSoft simply because they lack 3rd party vendor support. PCSoft is too proprietary in this area which has discouraged the 3rd party marketplace.


This will never happen. I mean PCSoft will never open up for third party development because if they do then they will not be able to sell their new version easily every year as what they are offering will be (may be) available from third party at a throw away price or free!

Regards,

Yogi Yang

von Yogi Yang - am 29.03.2017 04:08
LIGHTSWITCH WHAT?

Hi,
just to tell you how it goes: Lightswitch has been discontinued by Microsoft, the recommendation is not use Lightswitch for any new projects!

The problem with Microsoft is that they are not able to / interested in supporting something labeled "4GL". There are patents and there is a vast number of 3rd party software makers who are - at least partially - engaged in making things which would be useless if a true 4GL came from Microsoft.

von GuenterP - am 29.03.2017 08:25
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